Marine Corps probe video showing troops "urinating on dead Taliban"

[OldSolduer]

If there is anyone entitled to some payback - its me and my wife.

We are dismayed and disturbed that our allies can stoop to this sort of behavior. Please note that - we are civilized and would hope that our troops would never engage in this particularly disgusting display.

And I can tell you that there would be at least one young man would be disgusted by this behavior.


That's all I got to say bout that (Forrest Gump)

 

[RCR Grunt]

Should have saved that.

Nice.  Well played.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If there is anyone entitled to some payback - its me and my wife.

We are dismayed and disturbed that our allies can stoop to this sort of behavior. Please note that - we are civilized and would hope that our troops would never engage in this particularly disgusting display.

And I can tell you that there would be at least one young man would be disgusted by this behavior.


That's all I got to say bout that (Forrest Gump)

Well said.

 

[jollyjacktar]

While this is not the sort of behavior we would like to see from our side, I still have visions of Mike Durant's crew being paraded  dragged through the steets and hung in Mogadishu.  I remember the violations of the bodies of the French Para's and the young Highlander of more recent vintage.  When set aside this, or some of the other things that have been done to the vanquished in the past, I do to some extent go "Meh".  After all it's not like they had their mouthes filled with pork before being set alight with gasoline which IIRC would be a double offence to Islam.  I'm not condoning what was done, and I'm sure they will be punished for it. 

A war crime though??  Is that term being used so freely now that it loses it's meaning?  What Kurt Myers did at Melmandy was a war crime.  Hunting down innocent Afghan's and Iraqi's as was done in those two incidents by US troops, yes and yes.  This act?  Against their Uniform Code of Service Justice as it's called IIRC, certainly.  Hague-ish war crime?  I'm not convinced there.

 

[Old Sweat]

A war crime though??  Is that term being used so freely now that it loses it's meaning?  What Kurt Myers did at Melmandy was a war crime.

I tend to agree that the term is over used, but I am not sure what else to call a violation of the law of armed conflict. Mods, forgive the hijack, and I don't have any brief for Kurt Meyer, who was a Nazi thug and as far as I am concerned careless with the truth in his memoirs. However, Meyer had been captured on 9 Sep 44. The perpetrators of the Malmedy massacre were members of the Kampfgruppe commanded by Joachim Peiper.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I tend to agree that the term is over used, but I am not sure what else to call a violation of the law of armed conflict. Mods, forgive the hijack, and I don't have any brief for Kurt Meyer, who was a Nazi thug and as far as I am concerned careless with the truth in his memoirs. However, Meyer had been captured on 9 Sep 44. The perpetrators of the Malmedy massacre were members of the Kampfgruppe commanded by Joachim Peiper.

Thank you for clarifying Malmedy in that he did not personally command the perps, he did get run for it (real war crimes-Mouen) though.  Nevertheless, the gravity of what was done makes this latest tempest in a bed pan pale by compairison. 

 

[Redeye]

Once again, you win the Internets Mr. Seggie.

I'm disgusted by it, and I wouldn't particularly want to to wear the same uniform as someone who thinks that's okay - because the last thing I want is someone seeing me in uniform and thinking I'm okay with that sort of behaviour. I'm not.

As for the point with the KAF Tailor - that's the whole concept of hearts and minds encapsulated. We have to put a strong focus on providing security and basic infrastructure. If we can't, we might as well leave and hand the place over. The same problem exists in Iraq. A very good friend of mine who's a Shiite Iraqi-Canadian shared the sentiment that even her family had. Sure, it's great Saddam's gone, but at least then there wasn't much sectarian violence like now, and the power and water systems worked. It's not hard to understand what motivates insurgency.

If there is anyone entitled to some payback - its me and my wife.

We are dismayed and disturbed that our allies can stoop to this sort of behavior. Please note that - we are civilized and would hope that our troops would never engage in this particularly disgusting display.

And I can tell you that there would be at least one young man would be disgusted by this behavior.


That's all I got to say bout that (Forrest Gump)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You might want to ask the Soviets how that worked out for them.

Well the Soviets failed for reasons a tad more complex than this. Most of the 300,000 hospitalized were from diseases and not enemy action, they did ok till the scorched earth policy and the introduction of manpads from the West. Plus the use of troops from previously Islamic countries didn’t help. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

As for the point with the KAF Tailor - that's the whole concept of hearts and minds encapsulated. We have to put a strong focus on providing security and basic infrastructure. If we can't, we might as well leave and hand the place over. The same problem exists in Iraq. A very good friend of mine who's a Shiite Iraqi-Canadian shared the sentiment that even her family had. Sure, it's great Saddam's gone, but at least then there wasn't much sectarian violence like now, and the power and water systems worked. It's not hard to understand what motivates insurgency.

That follows much of what my LEP's told me.  ISAF dropped the ball early on by not cementing the small comforts such as dependable power, water etc for the general populous.  They did not see a real increase in their daily living standard as they could/should have.  That, would have gone a long way to winning the hearts and minds of your local chap.

 

[Jarnhamar]

As for the point with the KAF Tailor - that's the whole concept of hearts and minds encapsulated. We have to put a strong focus on providing security and basic infrastructure.

Which we can't do because we're so afraid of the hearts and minds thing that we're too afraid to act like a$$holes when we need to.

 

[Redeye]

Which we can't do because we're so afraid of the hearts and minds thing that we're too afraid to act like a$$holes when we need to.

I'm not sure how acting like assholes would in any way have anything to do with it. Acting like assholes doesn't build infrastructure, provide electricity, keep the economy going, or anything of the sort that would support that aim.

 

[OldSolduer]

Building schools, clinics, playgrounds etc is nice....provided there is security and stability.

If or  when you leave the school is burnt down, the clinic is destroyed, the playgrounds are razed and all the people that staff them are murdered....you've only dug a hole bigger than you filled in.

We don't have to act like jerks. We (NATO or whoever) has to root out the bad guys and if termination with extreme prejudice is the way - so be it.

But we're side tracked. Again. Urination on the corpses of your enemy won't win you friends and may make you a sh!tload of enemies.

That's all I got to say bout that.

 

[winnipegoo7]

On a tangent for ignorant people like myself, who is ISAF fighting? Is it the Al Qaeda, Taleban, Pashtun nationalists, or maybe a combination?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm not sure how acting like assholes would in any way have anything to do with it. Acting like assholes doesn't build infrastructure, provide electricity, keep the economy going, or anything of the sort that would support that aim.

Sorry to be more clear I don't mean act like bullies and screw with people just because we can. That doesn't help at all.
I mean don't let anyone take advantage of us, use our ROEs against us or get away with taking our money for work projects that don't pan out.
Treat someone with a knapsack digging on the side of the road at 4 am as a hostile and not wait until a LAV gets blown up the next day to say hey I guess it WAS an insurgent.

On a tangent for ignorant people like myself, who is ISAF fighting? Is it the Al Qaeda, Taleban, Pashtun nationalists, or maybe a combination?

You're a corporal in the infantry for 11 years and you don't know who we are fighting?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

On a tangent for ignorant people like myself, who is ISAF fighting? Is it the Al Qaeda, Taleban, Pashtun nationalists, or maybe a combination?

:facepalm:

that is all.....

 

[winnipegoo7]

I'm no longer in the infantry, but still in the CF.  But no, I don't know who we are fighting. I imagine it's complicated. Wikipedia lists many combatants in Afghanistan.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I'm no longer in the infantry, but still in the CF.  But no, I don't know who we are fighting. I imagine it's complicated. Wikipedia lists many combatants in Afghanistan.

Again......

:facepalm:

You being living under a rock for the last decade?

 

[GAP]

Oh, just tell him!!

it's the Iranians mixed in with some Libyans.....

 

[armyvern]

While this is not the sort of behavior we would like to see from our side, I still have visions of Mike Durant's crew being paraded  dragged through the steets and hung in Mogadishu.  I remember the violations of the bodies of the French Para's and the young Highlander of more recent vintage.  When set aside this, or some of the other things that have been done to the vanquished in the past, I do to some extent go "Meh".  After all it's not like they had their mouthes filled with pork before being set alight with gasoline which IIRC would be a double offence to Islam.  I'm not condoning what was done, and I'm sure they will be punished for it. 

I don't think most 'humane' people would disagree with the above. However, our adherance to the LOAC and Geneva Conventions is exactly what makes us professionals and 'different' from them. No one has inferred that this incident is on a comparable scale to the inhumane and deplorable actions of the Taliban or Al Qaeda's (or insert any terrorist organizational name here) handling of coalition wounded, dead or 'infidels' who fall into their hands.

But,

A war crime though??  Is that term being used so freely now that it loses it's meaning?  What Kurt Myers did at Melmandy was a war crime.  Hunting down innocent Afghan's and Iraqi's as was done in those two incidents by US troops, yes and yes.  This act?  Against their Uniform Code of Service Justice as it's called IIRC, certainly.  Hague-ish war crime?  I'm not convinced there.

What else do we call acts in contravention of the LOAC and Geneva Conventions? This recent act wasn't just against a single nation's code of justice rather it is also against international codes that the US was signatory to..

 

[a_majoor]

The problem with the "Acting like A**holes" strategy is essentially you need to go "all in" at that point; any backtracking at all becomes interpreted as a sign of weakness.

Now this isn't to say this can't be done; the Romans use it quite effectively against their insurgencies to the point a saying came down to us: "The Romans create a wilderness, and call it peace".

That sort of attitude simply does not square with our values, nor would it create the desired end effects, and indeed the expenditure of resources to effectively create a scorched earth policy on a provincial or national scale would be so great as to render the entire exercise moot; we would be bankrupted long before the exercise was over and unable to perform any branches or sequals resulting from these actions. Far better to emulate Governor Joseph Gallieni's tache d'huile strategy, which has also been demonstrated to work since the 1890's.