Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Underway]

That is about as scared as I have ever been in the CAF: doing down hatch drills as the nozzleman in Chemox/B gear against a live diesel fire in Tumult. The ladder was greasy as hell and if you slipped, you were dead. Then at the bottom, I was completely surrounded by fire, including it flashing overhead on the deckhead. Terrifying.

I hear that. This is why real fire training needs to return.

My scariest moment was when I was doing my door and hatch procedure on a fire that had been left far to long. The attack team leader was another ASLT/NCdt. Because the fire had no air it had almost burned itself out. When I cracked the door the oxygen starved fire suctioned the door right out of my hands opening fully up to our startled team (aka I screwed up royally). The backdraft exploded in our face and was met by our hose water. Fire, blinding black smoke, steam, incredible heat, fire roaring, water hissing, confusion, fear...

At some point we realized the attack team leader vanished, someone yelled "where did name redacted to protect the innocent go?". The nozzleman screamed back "I think hes dead! Attack the fire!" and we did. Straight into it.

Turns out the attack team leader got steam burns across his shoulders behind his neck (B-gear sucks) and just ran out of the building before he regained control of his lizard brain. He didn't even remember fleeing. He just remembered being outside and ripping his gear off thinking he was on fire.

The 651 firefighters thought it was all pretty funny, but to us it was overwhelming.

That was real scary training and we were better for it. I'm glad to hear that something like that is coming back.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That is about as scared as I have ever been in the CAF: doing down hatch drills as the nozzleman in Chemox/B gear against a live diesel fire in Tumult. The ladder was greasy as hell and if you slipped, you were dead. Then at the bottom, I was completely surrounded by fire, including it flashing overhead on the deckhead. Terrifying.

The old fire trainer was a much more real experience I find. I never did the west coat one, but here on the right coast I saw nozzlemen drop the hose and retreat in fear.

 

[YZT580]

No. We are critically short of training area, as it is. Leave Albert Head alone.

Although it was for officers, didn't you have at least the buildings that could have been re-purposed at Royal Roads?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Although it was for officers, didn't you have at least the buildings that could have been re-purposed at Royal Roads?

Royal Roads is no longer ours.

 

[YZT580]

Royal Roads is no longer ours.

I know that. The point is we had the facilities and dumped them to save money over the short term that is, if Royal Roads was fit for purpose

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I hear that. This is why real fire training needs to return.

My scariest moment was when I was doing my door and hatch procedure on a fire that had been left far to long. The attack team leader was another ASLT/NCdt. Because the fire had no air it had almost burned itself out. When I cracked the door the oxygen starved fire suctioned the door right out of my hands opening fully up to our startled team (aka I screwed up royally). The backdraft exploded in our face and was met by our hose water. Fire, blinding black smoke, steam, incredible heat, fire roaring, water hissing, confusion, fear...

At some point we realized the attack team leader vanished, someone yelled "where did name redacted to protect the innocent go?". The nozzleman screamed back "I think hes dead! Attack the fire!" and we did. Straight into it.

Turns out the attack team leader got steam burns across his shoulders behind his neck (B-gear sucks) and just ran out of the building before he regained control of his lizard brain. He didn't even remember fleeing. He just remembered being outside and ripping his gear off thinking he was on fire.

The 651 firefighters thought it was all pretty funny, but to us it was overwhelming.

That was real scary training and we were better for it. I'm glad to hear that something like that is coming back.

That's me as the nozzleman at the PMTI training facility back in the day. I took this course 3 times as it was so much fun and good training, subsidized for mariners. The first course they made us go into the structure with no breathing apparatus, as most small commercial vessels did not have them. So be thankfully your the nozzle man and got fresh air from it.

 

[NavyShooter]

My 2nd time doing my fire training in Halifax in the 'old' building that was in the field below the current trainer was....interesting.

Live fire - diesel fuel, no foam, only water. 2 doors, both of us were to enter at the same time, clear the fire between the doors, then turn and head around the 'engine' and meet at the other end.

My Chemox lungs collapsed on entry (banged my arms into them with the hose) but we kept going - Put the fire out between the doors, then advanced...turned out the other attack team had to back out and I had to circle around all the way to the other door. The staff guy at the other door kept the fire from going around behind me (appreciated.)

Life fire was HOT - like, they'd get the building burning - then leave it for at least 5 minute before the first team was allowed to enter.

At the end of the day, the instructors would go in with a foam hose and we'd see how well and how quickly it would beat down the flames.

AFFF works.

 

[Kirkhill]

Denmark doing a fleet rethink.

Three Iver Huitfeldt AAW ships to be retained a while longer
Two Absolon C&S ships, 20 years old, to be replaced

Rasmussen and Thetis Arctic Patrol ships to be replaced with 6 to 12 Multi-Role Combat Ships designed for arctic operations - modular design based on the OMT Stanflex system. OMT currently advising the ISY team. The Danes do not seem to have the same problems with modularity experienced by the USN.

Five civil-military ships will be acquired to secure undersea infrastructure, conduct environmental response, lay mines and be used for training.

Twenty one new patrol vessels for the volunteer Home Guard to replace the existing 83 ton MHV 800s.

Denmark Unveils Major Naval Modernization Plan - Defense Security Monitor

Denmark made waves on March 30, when the Defense Ministry announced an ambitious plan for the significant modernization of the country’s naval forces. As part of this new plan, the …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

The centre piece is the new Arctic capable Multi-Role Combat Vessel to be built in Esbjerg Denmark -

DALO and Danske Patruljeskibe K/S reaches agreement on new naval vessels for The Danish Armed Forces

The Danish Ministry of Defence Acquisition and Logistics Organisation (DALO) has signed an agreement with Danske Patruljeskibe K/S – a consortium founded by Terma, Odense Maritime Technology and PensionDanmark – on the scheme design for new naval vessels for the Danish Armed Forces.

www.terma.com

AI summary below - reader beware.

Notionally a 90 meter vessel of 1720 tonnes with a crew of 15 to 40 and space for up to 70 pax.

The new Danish flexible patrol ships, developed as part of the "Danish Patrol Ships" (DPS) program, are designed for modularity and adaptability to various missions, with a focus on Arctic capabilities. These ships are expected to be equipped with advanced sensors, both manned and unmanned, and will be capable of operating in a range of maritime environments, including the Arctic and North Atlantic.

Key Features and Specifications:

• Modularity:
  The ships are built with a modular design, allowing for the rapid deployment of different mission-specific modules, such as ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) systems, oil spill containment, and equipment for search and rescue or disaster relief.
  
  
• Arctic Capability:
  The ships are designed with ice-reinforced hulls and the ability to operate in Arctic conditions, including the deployment of autonomous systems like UUVs (Unmanned Undersea Vehicles).
  
  
• Flexible Armament:
  The ships can be equipped with a range of weapons systems, including surface-to-air missiles, anti-surface warfare missiles, and gun systems, depending on the specific mission requirements.
  
  
• Enhanced Sensors and AI:
  The ships will incorporate advanced sensors, including radar, sonar, and electronic warfare systems, as well as AI-enabled capabilities for autonomous operations and data analysis.
  
  
• Mission Flexibility:
  The ships are designed to support a wide range of maritime missions, including sovereignty patrols, environmental monitoring, search and rescue, and anti-piracy operations.
  
  
• Helicopter Platform:
  The ships will have a helipad and hangar for operating Agusta-Bell EH-101 Merlin helicopters, enabling extended range and improved surveillance capabilities.
  
  
• Crew Capacity:
  The ships can accommodate a crew of 15-40 personnel, with additional berths for up to 70 people for mission-specific deployments.
  
  
• Speed and Endurance:
  The ships have a design speed of 18 knots and an endurance of 21 days, allowing for extended deployments in challenging environments.
  
  
• Size:
  The ships are approximately 90 meters in length and 18 meters in width.
  
  
• Mission Modules:
  The ships can accommodate a variety of mission modules, such as the SH Defence "The Cube" system, ACTAS ASW system, oil spill booms, and equipment for the Arctic Standby Force.

Denmark plans acquisition of three new Arctic patrol ships

The Danish Ministry of Defence (MoD) has announced plans to acquire three new Arctic patrol ships to replace the Royal Danish Navy's (RDN's) Thetis-class patrol ships....

www.janes.com

 

[Kirkhill]

More detail on the Multi-Role Patrol Vessel of the Danish Navy.

90 m multi-role, 1100 tonne deadweight.

 

[calculus]

Team Vigilance has entered a partnership with Algoma for steel.

Team Vigilance Welcomes Algoma Steel into the Preferred Supplier Program as the Primary Steel Provider - Canadian Defence Review

Ontario Shipyards, is proud to announce that Algoma Steel Inc. has signed a letter of intent to join the Team Vigilance preferred supplier program as the exclusive steel provider of steel plate.

canadiandefencereview.com

For a program that as far as I know is unfunded, these guys are certainly acting as if a contract is imminent.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Team Vigilance has entered a partnership with Algoma for steel.

Team Vigilance Welcomes Algoma Steel into the Preferred Supplier Program as the Primary Steel Provider - Canadian Defence Review

Ontario Shipyards, is proud to announce that Algoma Steel Inc. has signed a letter of intent to join the Team Vigilance preferred supplier program as the exclusive steel provider of steel plate.

canadiandefencereview.com

For a program that as far as I know is unfunded, these guys are certainly acting as if a contract is imminent.

Yes, they certainly are. It sounds an awful like they have an inside track to news/discussions that have yet to be announced.

 

[dapaterson]

Or they are positioning themselves to be impossible to refuse.

Like the JSF - it's billions more expensive because manufacturing is widely dispersed across the US and to partner nations, ensuring broad political support.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Vigilance is just an early pitch at a time when nobody else is doing the same in a public facing matter, they are going to look incredibly silly if they end up not getting the contract after this herculean media campaign. There is countless designs worldwide that can more than fit with CMMC is likely trying to do, they aren't special and aren't offering anything especially unique at the end of the day.

 

[KevinB]

Vigilance is just an early pitch at a time when nobody else is doing the same in a public facing matter, they are going to look incredibly silly if they end up not getting the contract after this herculean media campaign. There is countless designs worldwide that can more than fit with CMMC is likely trying to do, they aren't special and aren't offering anything especially unique at the end of the day.

IRB’s

 

[Underway]

Algoma also supplies Seaspan with plate steel, and GDLS Canada. They are the leading armoured plate manufacturer in North America IIRC. So they are hurting from tariffs but not quite the same as other places.

No matter who gets the contract Algoma is going to get a piece of the pie. The steel industry in Hamilton is looking at the specialty steels for ships now as well (icebreaker hull stuff). Might not be worth the investment, but that's for bean counters to figure out.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Vard adding even more proposals to the "Vigilance" family in their latest CDR magazine advertisements. Vigilance 55 looks like a 1:1 copy of the existing VARD 7 055, while Vigilance 40 is a small design I have not seen before. Very strange to see these smaller proposals pushed, as I don't particularly see a need for them within the RCN.

 

[PrairieFella]

Maybe for the coasties?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Algoma also supplies Seaspan with plate steel, and GDLS Canada. They are the leading armoured plate manufacturer in North America IIRC. So they are hurting from tariffs but not quite the same as other places.

No matter who gets the contract Algoma is going to get a piece of the pie. The steel industry in Hamilton is looking at the specialty steels for ships now as well (icebreaker hull stuff). Might not be worth the investment, but that's for bean counters to figure out.

I don't think there is anyone left in Hamilton that can make the specialty steel; Slater steel could have but they went into receivership in 2018, and from what I understand the electric arc furnace and other parts of the (ludicrously productive) line all got relocated to a different plant outside of Canada. They had this giant 20 tonne cutting machine (think huge gullotine) that dated back to the 1920s, but other than some crack repairs to the massive frame, that thing ran 24/7 48 weeks a year and didn't even flinch at the large billets from the continual caster.

That was a really interesting shop, and they recycled an incredibly amount of steel.

Unless they've changed their lines, Stelco and Dofasco aren't set up to do the specialized annealing and heat treatment for those specialty steels, as their focus is on high volume, high usage steels that aren't up to our normal steel specs.

Algoma is one of the niche producers in Canada, but pretty sure a lot of the AOPs steel came from China, as they had one of the few mills in the world able to make it.

About 15 years ago I optimistically asked some of the IRB people if part of the Jensen report and Key Industrial Capabilities meant encouraging Canadian industries like the steel mills (so we could supply our own steel to make our own ships) and there was a pretty clear expression of distaste on the smug pricks face. I guess steel is too dirty for their sensibilities, and they only wanted sexy end products.

My experience with the Dept of Finance people and the IC people is they have no real understanding of how a supply chain works for the most part, and none of them seemed to care that Canada was basically entirely relying on foreign imports to make all the critical parts for ships. The supply chain on pretty much every key piece of kit is almost entirely Canadian distributors for US and EU companies. Some of the IRB and value proposition clauses actually disadvantaged medium or large scale Canadian producers, as there were points for creating small businesses (ie seting up a distributor) but nothing for actually having a larger industry producing something. Just really bizarre.

 

[PrairieFella]

I wonder if Gerdau in Selkirk,MB could make ship steel? But at that point the cost of shipping would be nutty.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I wonder if Gerdau in Selkirk,MB could make ship steel? But at that point the cost of shipping would be nutty.

Wouln't that go by train to Thunder Bay then by boat from there? That's a pretty old shipping route from what I recall.

Yes, they certainly are. It sounds an awful like they have an inside track to news/discussions that have yet to be announced.

There were a bunch of similar proposals from different companies that got screened out when NSS went through the first phase, and that was a fully funded program supported by Cabinet.

This is optimistic marketing that may have some discussion with a few senior people, but no one that has understands how to make it a reality. At that proposed tonnage the NSS yards get first dibs on ships on the larger size, and when they are looking at building the order books will be opening up in Vancouver. On the smaller ships those are required to be openly competed under the 65 year old 'Made in Canada' policy, with the NSS yards specifically excluded, but we don't do untendered proposals (unless you are Davie).

Nice marketing though.