Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[KevinB]

Training ships should be for training only. I think that you could expand what training we are talking about perhaps (make some RAS/Light Line capable so you can do live RAS training for example). Their simplicity also means you need very few qualified sailors as core crew (two or three) augmented by instructors (this is a huge bonus).

You do not want mission creep on these things. That's a classic Canadian mistake made by the RCN and the Army all the time (army in particular...). The USNI recently published an article about how genius the Orca's are. Lets keep going with what works. 50 cal capable max. If such a time comes that they need to be armed then they'll do and "armed yacht" refit and we'll carry on.

The size of an Orca is pretty close to what you want. Anything larger and you can't visit the smaller ports in the islands, and thus lose a lot of the usefulness in the training, by going up island and going to places where the waters are tight and the navigation situations are varied.

The hull shape needs to change though. The wake on those things is brutal and resticts their ability to move at a proper speed near other vessels. It also makes them more lively than perhaps they should be in higher seas (something to consider if Halifax is on the list to get a few).

Other than that they have everything you need. Because when they designed them they spoke to the CO's of the MCDV's (who were the training platform at the time), the Venture instructors AND the students (I was one of those). We all made recommendations which they took.

Leave the overdesign overthinking and overexpectations to JSS, CSC and now CDC. At least AOPS was a generally focused design.

Does it make sense to have two types of training platforms?
I ask, as the Orca's seem to be missing a lot of what I would consider critical training items (weapons and FCR/CIC).

I don't know much about the Navy, my only experience on surface and subsurface vessels has been as a means of transport, either for insertion, or interdiction. I'm a kinetic guy at heart - so I tend to like the folks on the boat supporting me to have a pretty solid level of familiarization with their weapons and effects, especially on the larger naval guns. In that same vein, I also think that any RCN vessel should be armed at all times, as bad guys like to hammer soft targets.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This?

 

[dapaterson]

Does it make sense to have two types of training platforms?
I ask, as the Orca's seem to be missing a lot of what I would consider critical training items (weapons and FCR/CIC).

I don't know much about the Navy, my only experience on surface and subsurface vessels has been as a means of transport, either for insertion, or interdiction. I'm a kinetic guy at heart - so I tend to like the folks on the boat supporting me to have a pretty solid level of familiarization with their weapons and effects, especially on the larger naval guns. In that same vein, I also think that any RCN vessel should be armed at all times, as bad guys like to hammer soft targets.

Orcas are training map and compass and navigation at sea (which is more complex than on land by orders of magnitude).

 

[Rainbow1910]

Training ships should be for training only. I think that you could expand what training we are talking about perhaps (make some RAS/Light Line capable so you can do live RAS training for example). Their simplicity also means you need very few qualified sailors as core crew (two or three) augmented by instructors (this is a huge bonus).

You do not want mission creep on these things. That's a classic Canadian mistake made by the RCN and the Army all the time (army in particular...). The USNI recently published an article about how genius the Orca's are. Lets keep going with what works. 50 cal capable max. If such a time comes that they need to be armed then they'll do and "armed yacht" refit and we'll carry on.

The size of an Orca is pretty close to what you want. Anything larger and you can't visit the smaller ports in the islands, and thus lose a lot of the usefulness in the training, by going up island and going to places where the waters are tight and the navigation situations are varied.

The hull shape needs to change though. The wake on those things is brutal and resticts their ability to move at a proper speed near other vessels. It also makes them more lively than perhaps they should be in higher seas (something to consider if Halifax is on the list to get a few).

Other than that they have everything you need. Because when they designed them they spoke to the CO's of the MCDV's (who were the training platform at the time), the Venture instructors AND the students (I was one of those). We all made recommendations which they took.

Leave the overdesign overthinking and overexpectations to JSS, CSC and now CDC. At least AOPS was a generally focused design.

This 100%, it seems fairly obvious to me that the reason why the Orca's have been permitted to keep doing their training missions is that they physically cannot operate outside of coastal British Columbia. I would put good money on a more seaworthy and capable successor being tasked on other missions besides training if the RCN could get away with it, especially with the MCDV's going the way of the dodo. The Orca concept works, fix its issues while still focusing the design primarily around training to physically stop the RCN from tasking it elsewhere.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This 100%, it seems fairly obvious to me that the reason why the Orca's have been permitted to keep doing their training missions is that they physically cannot operate outside of coastal British Columbia. I would put good money on a more seaworthy and capable successor being tasked on other missions besides training if the RCN could get away with it, especially with the MCDV's going the way of the dodo. The Orca concept works, fix its issues while still focusing the design primarily around training to physically stop the RCN from tasking it elsewhere.

So they are like a child who can't be allowed to play with advanced toys, as they have no long term planning, discipline and self-control?

 

[Stoker]

This 100%, it seems fairly obvious to me that the reason why the Orca's have been permitted to keep doing their training missions is that they physically cannot operate outside of coastal British Columbia. I would put good money on a more seaworthy and capable successor being tasked on other missions besides training if the RCN could get away with it, especially with the MCDV's going the way of the dodo. The Orca concept works, fix its issues while still focusing the design primarily around training to physically stop the RCN from tasking it elsewhere.

The CRCN wants a ORCA replacement to make up for the training shortfall with the paying off of the Kingston Class. Dependent on who you talk to, the wish is for better capable platform. How much so is the question isn't it. It's just not the Officers we are talking about in the training shortfall and other trades should have the capability to train as well. After all they are training ships.
I don't see any issue on replacing them and providing enough of the same hulls to other entities as previously mentioned so the RCN won't be temped to divert them from the training mission. It does raise the question who is exactly in charge of the ORCA's and their inability to keep their platforms carrying out the missions they should be doing in the first place.

 

[YZT580]

This 100%, it seems fairly obvious to me that the reason why the Orca's have been permitted to keep doing their training missions is that they physically cannot operate outside of coastal British Columbia. I would put good money on a more seaworthy and capable successor being tasked on other missions besides training if the RCN could get away with it, especially with the MCDV's going the way of the dodo. The Orca concept works, fix its issues while still focusing the design primarily around training to physically stop the RCN from tasking it elsewhere.

There are still a number of navies that maintain and utilize a large sailing vessel to teach seamanship and leadership. With budgets the way they are, there must be some rationale they are relying on to justify the expense And they definitely aren't armed except for maybe the odd 12 gauge.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Does it make sense to have two types of training platforms?
I ask, as the Orca's seem to be missing a lot of what I would consider critical training items (weapons and FCR/CIC).

I don't know much about the Navy, my only experience on surface and subsurface vessels has been as a means of transport, either for insertion, or interdiction. I'm a kinetic guy at heart - so I tend to like the folks on the boat supporting me to have a pretty solid level of familiarization with their weapons and effects, especially on the larger naval guns. In that same vein, I also think that any RCN vessel should be armed at all times, as bad guys like to hammer soft targets.

These are for the most basic training in navigation, bridgemanship (meaning applying rules of the road to situation where you encounter another vessel - handling basic emergencies such as person overboard, fires, steering gear breakdowns, etc) and ship-handling until you built enough confidence to be able to proceed further into an operational environment.

Think of it like the USAF trains its pilots: You start with ground school to learn the basics of flying and put that in practice on a single prop small plane, which I think is the T6 Texan, from Beechcraft these days. These small planes are obviously not armed and have no operational function. Only when you can fly confidently do you move to either jet or multiple engine depending on the type you'll be trained on for combat.

The Orca's are the navy's Beechcraft little plane equivalent. When you master that, then you move on to bigger and more operational things.

 

[GR66]

These are for the most basic training in navigation, bridgemanship (meaning applying rules of the road to situation where you encounter another vessel - handling basic emergencies such as person overboard, fires, steering gear breakdowns, etc) and ship-handling until you built enough confidence to be able to proceed further into an operational environment.

Think of it like the USAF trains its pilots: You start with ground school to learn the basics of flying and put that in practice on a single prop small plane, which I think is the T6 Texan, from Beechcraft these days. These small planes are obviously not armed and have no operational function. Only when you can fly confidently do you move to either jet or multiple engine depending on the type you'll be trained on for combat.

The Orca's are the navy's Beechcraft little plane equivalent. When you master that, then you move on to bigger and more operational things.

Are the trainees on the Orca's strictly officers? Strictly NWO's? Do other trades have at-sea training vessels other than the MCDV's or training berths on the CPF's/AOPS?