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Calling us troopies, troops etc makes us cranky too 
Medical Assistant - Reserve
- Thread starter FredDaHead
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Further to combat medics post above, I don't think it is inefficent to train medics on soldier skills however the limited time and money available for training makes it extremely difficult. I agree with paramedtech that soldier skills can likely be refreshed faster for deployment than medical skills. In 4-6 weeks it should be easy enough to cover all MLOC weapons famil shoots, PWT, NBC, etc. If people have not cultivated some medical experience and real patient care you will be hard pressed to make that up in a few weeks. As a junior NCO I also have concerns for my troops abilities. Medics are one of the few trades that do their real job on a regular basis. Virtually all of my troops are employed at one point or another during the year on MIR taskings, med supports etc that require their medical skills to be up to date. In short I try to focus my energy on the short term to help get my troops able to provide the best patient care they can. They are not likely to be leading a section attack against a Taliban compound on the short term. If we were deploying my priorities might change, but then again we'd all be doing MLOC and predeployment training. There is just not enough time or money to do anything different on a daily basis.
The flip side of this example is the infantry unit that never practices first aid but is crack at weapons handling. Having been with the infantry for several years I can tell you for a fact that first aid is virtually never practiced, and their is certainly very little if any time devoted to casevac training. Again in the ideal world every member would do the Combat casualty care course and real time scenarios with full moulage would be incorporated into training. Again, not likely to happen unless its for a deployment.
The flip side of this example is the infantry unit that never practices first aid but is crack at weapons handling. Having been with the infantry for several years I can tell you for a fact that first aid is virtually never practiced, and their is certainly very little if any time devoted to casevac training. Again in the ideal world every member would do the Combat casualty care course and real time scenarios with full moulage would be incorporated into training. Again, not likely to happen unless its for a deployment.
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So what about courses? If medics start to get sent home from leadership training because they haven't done MLOC in 5 years, would that be incentive enough to start doing refreshers yearly?
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But, as was mentioned earlier, the only MLOC coveredat medical units is C7 and a basic unload of some of the support weapons. It's supposed to be C7, C9, C6 M72, Carl G and grenade TOETs, fieldcraft, NBCD and first aid. You also have to pass your yearly PWT. Can you honestly tell me of a medical unit that does that every year? Of the medics on my PLQ from 3 different Med Coys, none had done a full MLOC since they joined.
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Here lies the problem.
1. The MINIMUM standard for the medical corps is the unload for the C-9 and C-6. That is not to say that the rest can not be taught.
It is extremely hard from an instructional POV to teach the unload before the load. As someone who has had their PLQ I am sure you would agree.
In my unit we get the infantry to teach us the weapons. We teach them the first aid in return. It just makes sence.
2. The M-72 is out of the system and is not being taught any more.
3. Name one medic RTUd from a PLQ because they do not know the weapons drills before they got there. I do not know of a single case. I also do not know of a single case of an infanteer being RTUd because they do not know the proper memo format or how to properly fill out a CF 52.
The idea of the course is to teach leadership and teaching skills as mentioned by ParaMedTec earlier not weapons handling or marksmanship.
G. Fraser
1. The MINIMUM standard for the medical corps is the unload for the C-9 and C-6. That is not to say that the rest can not be taught.
It is extremely hard from an instructional POV to teach the unload before the load. As someone who has had their PLQ I am sure you would agree.
In my unit we get the infantry to teach us the weapons. We teach them the first aid in return. It just makes sence.
2. The M-72 is out of the system and is not being taught any more.
3. Name one medic RTUd from a PLQ because they do not know the weapons drills before they got there. I do not know of a single case. I also do not know of a single case of an infanteer being RTUd because they do not know the proper memo format or how to properly fill out a CF 52.
The idea of the course is to teach leadership and teaching skills as mentioned by ParaMedTec earlier not weapons handling or marksmanship.
G. Fraser
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I don't know of a medic who was RTUed from course, but I know many who should have been. The joining instructions for the course were very clear on the prerequisites and stated that anyone showing up without them would be sent home. While that particular threat was never carried through with those failing to comply, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that it happen. Those without the prerequisites took up a HUGE amount of time of the instrctors and candidates who had to make up for their units' lack of planning. Many important lectures and lessons had to be rushed and study time cut short for everyone else simply because some units didn't think that basic soldiering skills were necessary. We all had to suffer for their ignorance and lack of foresight.
As far as MLOC having some different qualification for medics only, this is the first I've heard of it. If that IS the case, then the entire MLOC idea is pointless. Either you qualify everyone to the same standard, or forget the whole program. A medic who's instructing a course or taking advanced/leadership training can't simply sit out of the weapons lectures or anything that doesn't pertain to being a non-combattant. As long as the medics are playing in the same sandbox as the rest of the army, they must be held to the same standards in terms of basic soldiering skills. If the CFMS in it's infinite wisdom wants to run medical leadership courses and forego the PLQ concept then they can leave out everything that they feel is unnecessary (which is pretty likely, considering the Comms have this kind of system). Until that time, if medics continue occupy positions on courses like the PLQ (land) and instruct on BMQ/SQ/PLQ courses, then ALL soldiering skills must be reviewed. A single week of IST is not enough to teach all weapons TOETs, infantry tactics and fieldcraft to a bunch of NCOs who should know it already. It is intented for standardization of instruction, and certainly not to teach someone how to do a section attack because they haven't seen one in a decade.
If the medical services want to operate entirely seperately from the army, that's their perrogative, but as long as they're taking army courses, they need to be trained as soldiers, and MLOC (the same MLOC that everyone else in the CF is required to complete) is the bare minimum of being a soldier.
Oh, and if the M72 is being phased out, this is the first I've ever heard of it. In my unit, we're still using it and recently fired off a few hundred sub-cal rounds in the States. If they're removing it, they have yet to replace it with anything as the M203 certainly can't fill the position of a light anti-armour weapon.
As far as MLOC having some different qualification for medics only, this is the first I've heard of it. If that IS the case, then the entire MLOC idea is pointless. Either you qualify everyone to the same standard, or forget the whole program. A medic who's instructing a course or taking advanced/leadership training can't simply sit out of the weapons lectures or anything that doesn't pertain to being a non-combattant. As long as the medics are playing in the same sandbox as the rest of the army, they must be held to the same standards in terms of basic soldiering skills. If the CFMS in it's infinite wisdom wants to run medical leadership courses and forego the PLQ concept then they can leave out everything that they feel is unnecessary (which is pretty likely, considering the Comms have this kind of system). Until that time, if medics continue occupy positions on courses like the PLQ (land) and instruct on BMQ/SQ/PLQ courses, then ALL soldiering skills must be reviewed. A single week of IST is not enough to teach all weapons TOETs, infantry tactics and fieldcraft to a bunch of NCOs who should know it already. It is intented for standardization of instruction, and certainly not to teach someone how to do a section attack because they haven't seen one in a decade.
If the medical services want to operate entirely seperately from the army, that's their perrogative, but as long as they're taking army courses, they need to be trained as soldiers, and MLOC (the same MLOC that everyone else in the CF is required to complete) is the bare minimum of being a soldier.
Oh, and if the M72 is being phased out, this is the first I've ever heard of it. In my unit, we're still using it and recently fired off a few hundred sub-cal rounds in the States. If they're removing it, they have yet to replace it with anything as the M203 certainly can't fill the position of a light anti-armour weapon.
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No one has said that basic soldiering skills are not important. What has been said is that given the time and fiscal restraints that we are all working under it is more valuable in the long term to place a bigger emphasis on the medical side of the house.
I agree with you that no one should be sent on course with out proper preparation and base knowledge. I personally will not nominate a person for any course if they do not show at least a basic knowledge of field skills, basic weapons handling, MCSP and physical fitness.
Are we all going to know how to use a sustained fire kit? No.
Are we going to be comperable to the infantry when it comes to patrolling? No.
Should we be competent in living under field conditions? Absolutely.
Should we know how our own personal weapon works? Absolutely.
In my unit we get infanteers to run the weapons refreshers each year, we in turn teach and maintain their first aid qualifications each year.
Am I apologising for the ill preparedness of some units medics when it comes to field craft, No. What I am saying is that if pers are being sent on a course that they are not prepared for then the unit has to know in the form of an after action report. The school also has to have some fortitude and RTU any member who has not been prepared for the course.
This is not exclusively a CFMG problem. On my JLC/JNCO we had a rad tec who did not even know how to put his webbing togeather and then used his mag pouches to hold his tools.
I would guess that you are a bit out of the loop because you do not parade with the local field ambulance but instead parade down the street with the Sea Forth. I am not bashing the Highland Infantry or your regiment in any way however the big heads in Ottawa have decided that ALL medics in the Land Force will belong to a Field Ambulance. This includes those with the Regular Force UMS and BMS all the way down to the reservists. If you do not maintain your MCSP and exercise with 12 FD Amb next training year this entire discussion will be moot as you will probably be asked to join the Field Amb, re-muster or release. The only way for a medic to parade with a non-CFMG unit is because of geographical limitations. Then they are a member of the regional Field Ambulance but the administration is carried out by the host unit. The Field Ambulance then gives the host unit around 37.5 man days per medic for pay that they are to commit to medical training, exercising with the field ambulance and maintaining their MCSP.
I agree with you that no one should be sent on course with out proper preparation and base knowledge. I personally will not nominate a person for any course if they do not show at least a basic knowledge of field skills, basic weapons handling, MCSP and physical fitness.
Are we all going to know how to use a sustained fire kit? No.
Are we going to be comperable to the infantry when it comes to patrolling? No.
Should we be competent in living under field conditions? Absolutely.
Should we know how our own personal weapon works? Absolutely.
In my unit we get infanteers to run the weapons refreshers each year, we in turn teach and maintain their first aid qualifications each year.
Am I apologising for the ill preparedness of some units medics when it comes to field craft, No. What I am saying is that if pers are being sent on a course that they are not prepared for then the unit has to know in the form of an after action report. The school also has to have some fortitude and RTU any member who has not been prepared for the course.
This is not exclusively a CFMG problem. On my JLC/JNCO we had a rad tec who did not even know how to put his webbing togeather and then used his mag pouches to hold his tools.
combat_medic said:
I would guess that you are a bit out of the loop because you do not parade with the local field ambulance but instead parade down the street with the Sea Forth. I am not bashing the Highland Infantry or your regiment in any way however the big heads in Ottawa have decided that ALL medics in the Land Force will belong to a Field Ambulance. This includes those with the Regular Force UMS and BMS all the way down to the reservists. If you do not maintain your MCSP and exercise with 12 FD Amb next training year this entire discussion will be moot as you will probably be asked to join the Field Amb, re-muster or release. The only way for a medic to parade with a non-CFMG unit is because of geographical limitations. Then they are a member of the regional Field Ambulance but the administration is carried out by the host unit. The Field Ambulance then gives the host unit around 37.5 man days per medic for pay that they are to commit to medical training, exercising with the field ambulance and maintaining their MCSP.
C
Cougar
Guest
combat_medic said:
so do reserve Medical assistant get the PcP liscense as well or is our training totally different?
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Boys, things you miss when your away on leave without an internet connection....
Red cross is worn...always on deployment overseas, and at fd amb in the fd. As sit dictates when working at UMS, but not as normal daily wear.
As a Regular force ARMY med tech, my soldiering skills cannot be any less practiced then my medical skills. A GOOD ARMY medic must have a balance of excellent medical skills, sound field skills, and an intimate knowledge of the cbt arms they support.
For MLOC, maybe we can get by with just the basics, sloughed off to the minimum standard, but when it comes to Deployment Level. You better know it or your doing it until you get it right. And thats not just load/unload, its also TOETs of each weapon, medical or not(we just don't shoot). And when your at high readiness, all training is done at DLOC.
We must think and learn outside our little medical box.
BTW, for all you Armymedic wanna be's....(is my ego getting to big?)
In Tactical Combat Casualty Care, what is the first step in providing care to the wounded?
Red cross is worn...always on deployment overseas, and at fd amb in the fd. As sit dictates when working at UMS, but not as normal daily wear.
As a Regular force ARMY med tech, my soldiering skills cannot be any less practiced then my medical skills. A GOOD ARMY medic must have a balance of excellent medical skills, sound field skills, and an intimate knowledge of the cbt arms they support.
For MLOC, maybe we can get by with just the basics, sloughed off to the minimum standard, but when it comes to Deployment Level. You better know it or your doing it until you get it right. And thats not just load/unload, its also TOETs of each weapon, medical or not(we just don't shoot). And when your at high readiness, all training is done at DLOC.
We must think and learn outside our little medical box.
BTW, for all you Armymedic wanna be's....(is my ego getting to big?
)In Tactical Combat Casualty Care, what is the first step in providing care to the wounded?
N
NavyGrunt
Guest
What about physical fitness ArmyMedic? ;D
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Further, this point is not correct...
From RN RPN quote "A infantry coy is lucky to have a medic in our real world and no CSM would squander that resource by sending them out on patrol."
In your world maybe. In mine, a medic is supposed to be tasked to each infantry platoon. Thats 3 medics per coy, and yes we do go on patrols....Platoon fighting patrols, Coy ambushes, as long as its bigger then a section, we go. Back to basic battlecraft.
This point I agree with...
from ParaMedTech quote "The tactical combat casualty care course is good, will save lives, and has undoubted benefit, but it is not a replacement for a trained prehospital professional; it is the actions that professional takes under austere and dangerous conditions to save lives. It is a standard of care appropriate for a hostile environment."
And this is why pigeonholing our training to that narrow scope (PCP only) is NOT the way to go. QL3 reg force med techs should do this course. Also they should pass the SQ type course as well prior to graduating QL 3 and arriving at thier units.
And BTW,
From Cbt medic quote
"But, as was mentioned earlier, the only MLOC covered at medical units is C7 and a basic unload of some of the support weapons. It's supposed to be C7, C9, C6, M72, Carl G and grenade TOETs, fieldcraft, NBCD and first aid. You also have to pass your yearly PWT. Can you honestly tell me of a medical unit that does that every year?"
2 FD AMB does. Ands its TOETs on all weapons, plus BFT, Nav ex, Mine Awareness and coming in the future AFV recognition. And we do it every yr.
From RN RPN quote "A infantry coy is lucky to have a medic in our real world and no CSM would squander that resource by sending them out on patrol."
In your world maybe. In mine, a medic is supposed to be tasked to each infantry platoon. Thats 3 medics per coy, and yes we do go on patrols....Platoon fighting patrols, Coy ambushes, as long as its bigger then a section, we go. Back to basic battlecraft.
This point I agree with...
from ParaMedTech quote "The tactical combat casualty care course is good, will save lives, and has undoubted benefit, but it is not a replacement for a trained prehospital professional; it is the actions that professional takes under austere and dangerous conditions to save lives. It is a standard of care appropriate for a hostile environment."
And this is why pigeonholing our training to that narrow scope (PCP only) is NOT the way to go. QL3 reg force med techs should do this course. Also they should pass the SQ type course as well prior to graduating QL 3 and arriving at thier units.
And BTW,
From Cbt medic quote
"But, as was mentioned earlier, the only MLOC covered at medical units is C7 and a basic unload of some of the support weapons. It's supposed to be C7, C9, C6, M72, Carl G and grenade TOETs, fieldcraft, NBCD and first aid. You also have to pass your yearly PWT. Can you honestly tell me of a medical unit that does that every year?"
2 FD AMB does. Ands its TOETs on all weapons, plus BFT, Nav ex, Mine Awareness and coming in the future AFV recognition. And we do it every yr.
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When we were discussing the med support we were specifically referring to the reserve on Ex. They request med support as they do not have intrinsic UMS facilities within their own units. Depending on the training they may get one medic or an Amb with two.
I know that when a unit has a larger UMS capability then by all means send medics out on platoon level events. If a medic is attached to a platoon and the platoon moves then it goes with reason that the medic goes too.
In this scenario it would be foolish to sent some of this resource out with a patrol when they can easily respond from a central identifyable location easier and more rapidly.So my point was correct as I was referring to med support for a reserve infantry unit on ex.
With the change in unit designators there was no change in manning. Most reserve Field Amb units operate at the Coy or Platoon level at best. Changing the name does not change the reality of medics on the ground unless some changes are made that have been discussed earlier in the thread.
As for the MLOC training: my unit does TOETs for all the service weapons and has SME instructors for these from the infantry. The PWT has been done every year with the exception of last year as the Brigade decreed that it was not required. We are out of that brigade system now and therefore are carrying on with training as before. Yes we field craft, nav, NBCD, Mine Awareness. We are limited in the amount of PT we can actually evaluate each year but I ensure that my platoon does the Express test and 13 K march each year. If they do not pass the above then they do not get nominated for courses or taskings.
I know that when a unit has a larger UMS capability then by all means send medics out on platoon level events. If a medic is attached to a platoon and the platoon moves then it goes with reason that the medic goes too.
In this scenario it would be foolish to sent some of this resource out with a patrol when they can easily respond from a central identifyable location easier and more rapidly.So my point was correct as I was referring to med support for a reserve infantry unit on ex.
With the change in unit designators there was no change in manning. Most reserve Field Amb units operate at the Coy or Platoon level at best. Changing the name does not change the reality of medics on the ground unless some changes are made that have been discussed earlier in the thread.
As for the MLOC training: my unit does TOETs for all the service weapons and has SME instructors for these from the infantry. The PWT has been done every year with the exception of last year as the Brigade decreed that it was not required. We are out of that brigade system now and therefore are carrying on with training as before. Yes we field craft, nav, NBCD, Mine Awareness. We are limited in the amount of PT we can actually evaluate each year but I ensure that my platoon does the Express test and 13 K march each year. If they do not pass the above then they do not get nominated for courses or taskings.
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Absolutely,
Once we realize that there are differences then we can get going on integration and proper utilization of both res and reg med support. I suspect that there will be more in common then not but, and this is a big but, those differences will have to be addressed or acknowledged for combined training and taskings. This board is the only place I am aware of that all members regardless of rank can air their concerns and recommendations with out fear of jumping the chain or being viewed as out of turn. Now if we can only get the group at CFMG HQ to read the board we would be in great shape.
GF
Once we realize that there are differences then we can get going on integration and proper utilization of both res and reg med support. I suspect that there will be more in common then not but, and this is a big but, those differences will have to be addressed or acknowledged for combined training and taskings. This board is the only place I am aware of that all members regardless of rank can air their concerns and recommendations with out fear of jumping the chain or being viewed as out of turn. Now if we can only get the group at CFMG HQ to read the board we would be in great shape.
GF
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Don't kid yourself, I think a lot more higher-ups read here more than we think.
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For an infantry unit that goes to the field with Platoon strength and sends the entire platoon on a fighting patrol, raid or ambush, does it not make sense to send a medic with them? What point would there be to have the medic sitting in the background when everyone on ex is going to be on patrol? If med support is going to be kilometres away from where all the troops are, then it really invalidates the presence of med support at all, and would make more sense to simply call civilian medical authorities in case of emergency, who could drive to a casualty in the time it would take them to be carried out.
