Medium/Heavy Lift Helos

[Cloud Cover]

You're right. I was principally responding to last summer's decision between the 101 and the Cyclone. With medium/heavy lift, the machine is the sum of the argument. With MH, it is only half. Personally, I am in favour of the Sea Dragon for ship based heavy lift for the army- however, whatever helo is chosen, storage and operability aboardship is going to be one of the determining factors. This would seem to rule out the Chinook and probably the Sea Dragon if reasonable practicality is factored in.

 

[devil39]

You're right. I was principally responding to last summer's decision between the 101 and the Cyclone. With medium/heavy lift, the machine is the sum of the argument. With MH, it is only half. Personally, I am in favour of the Sea Dragon for ship based heavy lift for the army- however, whatever helo is chosen, storage and operability aboardship is going to be one of the determining factors. This would seem to rule out the Chinook and probably the Sea Dragon if reasonable practicality is factored in.

I would tend to agree.  I have not been able to find any data that would allow a comparison between Chinook and EH-101 for performance in heat and at altitude.  I would be interested in any informed opinion on that comparison. 

As an Army guy, it would be hard for the Airforce to find anything worse than Griffon, so we could probably select by a game of "pin the tail on the donkey helicopter".

 

[Cloud Cover]

Surely somebody who lurks or posts here would have a fair approximation of what the Cormorant is capable of in terms of heat, altitude. That would be a rough approximation, anyway.

 

[Good2Golf]

Duey,

I was going to ask you for input on the Merlins.  

Having flown in Merlins in Bosnia, and having a fair bit of Chinook Air Assault experience, I was extremely impressed with the Merlin.   I don't know what the performance in heat or at altitude would be like, but I would imagine you should be able to extrapolate if you had some decent specs.

I found the Merlin to have awesome lift, and I figured I could get 30-ish troops in there, with rucks, seats out.   With the ramp and the large side door I figured I could empty the aircraft much faster than we were able to exit a Chinook.

Devil, am I reading correctly in between the lines that have you worked with the 16th AAB?  No doubt Merlin is a smooth flyer and fairly good size.  I do know it's optimized for sea level performance though, and I don't think it's quite in the sling 10,000kg at 7,000' density altitude.  Is Merlin's ramp really that big?  I've seen 44 jump out the back of my 'hook pretty darned fast!  ;D

I have to be honest here, I did ask a bit of a loaded question above...    I have had the opportunity to speak with some lads/operators who have used Merlin, Chinook, Puma, Lynx, Gazelle, Scout and most recently Mi-8/17 Hip for their operations and received very candid feedback.  Of course it's not the kind of feedback that contractors will be using to flesh out their press releases...but fair's fair...101 design wasn't optimized for hot/high/abrasive environmnets.  From what I understand, the majority of those 'operators' are not at all fans of the 101 for what it is they have to do.  Already one of the Merlins has apparently had to be returned to AW in Italy to be put in the jig since it has already had its windscreen replaced three times (windscreen is 'structural' in a 101, formaing a load bearing portion of the forward fuselage, so if it cracks it must be replaced, and after the third time replaced, must be re-jigged to ensure proper airframe alignment)  Interestingly, some of these issues are purportedly what drove the RAF to lease Mi-8/17 Hips for use in Iraq, flown by SH and SF aircrew, since the qty of HC1 Mk2/2A Chinook are limited until the Mk3's come on line after testing in Boscombe Downs is completed.

Interestingly, lots of folks are jumping on the "must be fully marinized, since it will be on a ship sailing as part of the SCTF" wagon...  

I won't take more than a second to point back to my earlier post about all the things that the TALC is being required to do...SCTF, being transported on a ship and then deployed inland and relaying troops and material to/from that BHS notwithstanding, I think it will be the "lightness" of the land force element embarked and how it will depend on aviation support that will be the critical factor...not whether the big honking helicopter should actually be more of a fleet of CH148 Cyclones.  I mention CH148 Cyclones, since any kind of fully marinized, blade folding 101 that the CF could conceivably procure will be a 3rd a/c type anyway...remember, the CH149 Cormorant is not a full marine-spec, blade folding machine...and it's maintained by a civilian technician base...

Sam's right about the SCTF and BHS being [one of] the cornerstones of the defence policy, but don't underestimate the other things that the Chief wants us to be doing.  Once folks start looking at the MSTF and the SOA/SOG requirement, things will no doubt get interesting.  Any selected helo will likely require IFR gear (in-flight refuelling) and a bunch of other things that don't immediately come to the fore when people are talking simply about being transported on a boat somewhere, then off loading and working primarily inland.  Things will become clearer when a number of things occur, including the CDS issuing his planning guidance for the SCTF development and the stand-up of the SOG.  Also don't forget that there will still be MH as part of the maritime task force supporting the SCTF (perhaps even armed escort for the BHH) as it takes the boys inland to the AO.


Devil, unfortunately the Army's in a bit of a glass house when it comes to Griffon...it was Comd FMC himself, LGen Foster, not the Air Force, who sought removal of the Chinook, Kiowa and Twin Huey from service to be replaced (only in part) by the Griffon.    Don't think we were overly thrilled by the prospect...heck, I was the copilot who actually flew Marcel Masse to Mirabel on 29 April 1992 (I date permanently etched (scarred?) into my memory) to make the announcement of the 100 412's.....  


Personally, I think some people are getting carried away with how marinized the med/hvy lift helo has to be, and forgetting the work that will be demanded of then for the MSTF and the SOG.  Brits still sent 4 x HC1's on Atlantic Conveyor to the Falklands, and the UH-3H's won't last forever...

Cheers,
Duey

p.s.   Whiskey, I have a very good idea how may tons a 'hook will lift up to some very high altitude, and on a single engine in many cases at sea level.   I'll check on releasability for the info I have.   I'm not really able to comment on Cormorant as I haven't seen a flight manual for the beast, perhaps folks who are proponents of the 101 can squeeze out some specs for it.

 

[devil39]

Dewy, no 101st.  PM me brother I'm incognito

As far as I am concerned if we can't find something that reasonably approximates a Chinook, then let us buy a Chinook.  They work quite well, even if they are rather large targets.

When it comes to exiting the aircraft, with the Merlin, it wasn't the size of the Merlin ramp, it was actually rather small.  The Merlin had a fairly large door on the starboard side (I do believe).  I would exit through both doors if I had my way, and it would be much faster than the push from the front of a Chinook with 100 lb rucks.

I am certainly not sold on Merlin, however It was impressive on the occasions I had to ride in it in Bosnia.  I wondered if It would have a similar lift at altitude to the Chinook however, which is something we need to consider. 

If Merlins don't like sand and dust we might also wish to reconsider.

 

[jmacleod]

I was aked to provide my opinion focused on a new Medium/Heavy Lift Rotary Wing aircraft for
the CF - nothing I have read since my post changes my opinion. My point is however focused on
the process of acquisition. No professional company could operate like NDHQ because they would
be bankrupt within a year. The process of purchasing/leasing an appropriate aircraft will take years
and years. NDHQ selected a radar system for the CP140 that was scheduled in at about $50 million
but is now over $300 million - how can this be justified? The entire system of military procurement
must be changed - the MHP Contract is beyond control of the Canadian government and is in the
hands of a contract administator (a US company) and UT Sikorsky. Know United Technologies and
all their divisions well - have worked on several major contracts with them, and they have invested
a lot of money in Canada (which was equalled by the Canadian government) - but Canadian taxpayers
are on the hook for the MHP, and have virtually no input into the project. The Industrial Regional
Benefits (IRB's) generated by the MHP are very important to the Canadian Economy, but the US
Department of Commerce define IRB's as contrary to the provisions of NAFTA - and they are right,
a factor overlooked in NDHQ and PW&GS Canada. No question UT Sikorsky build fine aircraft, but
that is not the point - accelerated procurement and support for the troops is the point. MacLeod

 

[Vigilant]

I too thought we should've gone with the EH-101. It's too bad that military procurement is so politicized.

If we had gotten the EH-101s we might have been able to replace the Griffins down the line too.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

After reading Duey's and Devil's comments on the Merlin I am more so sold on the opinion not to get any more for the CF. The 101 is sounding more and more like a lemon....(the Air Force's Victoria anyone...oh wait that is the Griffon isn't it? )

 

[Good2Golf]

I suppose folks will feel the way they feel and hold the opinions they hold based on experience and their own individual situations.  To be fair to Merlin, I should note that I have not flown an EH-101, just Boeing, Bell and [a wee bit of] Sikorsky products, so I am only relaying other's experiences or confirmable facts for what they are.

Auntie Liz pays me to plan and operate a weapon system to conduct tasks in support of a mission.  She doesn't pay me to prefer one machine over another, I do that on my own time.  I'm not particularly fussed what they give me to do the job, so long as it can do the job...if it can't, I scale the achievable task back accordingly and brief the command chain why I'm not able to do what was originally asked of me and my fellow aviators, maintainers and supporters.  If I really can't, I hump my arse in a staff job to make a difference and get back to the flight line ASAP.  ;D

A 'hook will lift a platoon of 36 guys (incl Pl HQ) or ~145000 lbs to a hover out-of-ground-effect at 8,000' DA within a 120 nm radius of action, this decently supports a single-lift of a Lt Forces Coy reasonably (i.e. very) well within foreseeable AOs (sea-based or land-locked).  It does that not caring what azimuth the wind is coming from and has plenty of remaining capacity for a few M134 7.62mm mini-guns.  A "G's" boom will let me fly for as long as my arse holds out...great for several ops where time and space places significant demands on a machine.  ;D

only 2 ¢

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/sep/Navy_Marine.htm

AH-1Z/UH-1N,   CV-22, CH-53X

USN/USMC procurement plans

http://www.bellhelicopter.textron.com/en/companyInfo/pressReleases/PR_BellWinsARH.cfm

Just throwing in this ARH reference for good measure.  Not medium but it is made in Montreal!! ;D

 

[Cloud Cover]

Gents, don't forget the SCTF is not the only task the TALC (Tactical Aviation Lift Capability) will have.  

Concurrently, it must optimally meet the SCTF, MSTF and SOG requirements in a single type...see Defence Policy Statement here for more info (page 30 in particular).  


...the SCTF will drive some element of marinization, as will SOG requirements.   SOG and MSTF will also drive hot/high requirements.   Only one lift type helo will be procured to address all these requirements.   That aircraft will have to span all three demands as best as possible.   Standby to see how this one develops... Anyone taking bets on what beast is procured... ???

In for a penny, in for a pound:
http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,,CLI1_DIV69_ETI922,00.html

 

[Sf2]

SOG will be getting Chinook G's...no question.

 

[Good2Golf]

After reading Duey's and Devil's comments on the Merlin I am more so sold on the opinion not to get any more for the CF. The 101 is sounding more and more like a lemon....(the Air Force's Victoria anyone...oh wait that is the Griffon isn't it? )

Ex-Dragoon, to be fair to future procurement contenders, the comments I passed on were for the existing Merlin.  I think the next generation 101 (with 3000hp GE engines and a new "BERP 4" blade that provides for better hot/high performance than the current BERP3 blade optimized for sea-level performance) would actually be a fair contender, but keep in mind...it would definitely NOT be a Cormorant painted green.  Mk4 Merlin / US-101 / HH-101 will be a significantely more capable machine than our yellow/red SAR Cormorant for sure.

That said, my spidey-sense tells me it was probably still a good thing to save the flight manual and checklist from the last time I flew Chinooks... ;D

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

SOG will be getting Chinook G's...no question.

Matches what I've been hearing...

 

[Sf2]

i wouldn't consider the Griffon a lemon.  Its servicability is quite good, its just ill-suited for certain tasks.

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

Production Begins on New Boeing CH-47F Chinook for the U.S. Army
 
 
(Source: Boeing Co.; issued Oct. 3, 2005)

 

[kj_gully]

Maybe we can trade in a few " next to new" Cormorants, and get new SAR birds on the contract.... the way its going right now, whichever 'copter wins will be covering standby a fair bit for the 101....

 

[Sf2]

I too thought we should've gone with the EH-101. It's too bad that military procurement is so politicized.

If we had gotten the EH-101s we might have been able to replace the Griffins down the line too.

Oh the irony!!  Given that GRIFFONS are replacing the cormorants in Trenton as we speak.

 

[kj_gully]

I thought it odd that the forces went with the S92, vs eh101, Cormorant Merlin whatever, but see now they were dodging the bullet we're swallowing in SAR. Maybe the US 101 ( beefed up tail rotor) will kick butt, but it is purely a guess.the Danes are delaying acceptance of their 101's until this tail rotor thing gets sorted. I think Chinook is the way to deploy an expiditionary force for sure, but here's one for you green rotor heads, How do we protect big lumbering targets making loud Whup Whup noises from the JSS to shore and beyond? Not too much talk about that yet...

 

[Sf2]

gully, that's where the F18's come in - as they do in the marines - they perform the SEAD task before the EF arrives (SEAD - surpression of enemy air defence).  Although its near impossible to defend against MANPADS, which is what the real threat is in today's environments, not huge SAM setups.  All you can really do against manpads is fly low, fast, and unpredictable, and hope you have decent ASE system and effective redundant aircraft systems, which TAC HEL guys have been doing for years.  Even with armed escorts, like a cobra or something, you can't defend against those MANPADS because they're so small and mobile.