Meet the GM Defense ISV Army Truck

[OldSolduer]

In 2 RCHA we used to do winter exercises for three or four weeks under helicopters and without any vehicles. The strange thing is you become acclimatized to the weather. I found that coming home afterwards I'd be uncomfortable by the heat of the house while I'd been perfectly comfortable in an arctic tent. (Except the air mattresses - I hated those damn things - always froze my shoulder and hip)

I felt the same after a few weeks in the cold. Now I am a HEAT SLUG!!!

 

[Kirkhill]

Bullets are more hostile than the weather. A vehicle that allows everyone to have all around observation and the ability to quickly return fire rather than sitting inside a box being perforated by rounds while you try to egress is better.

In 2 RCHA we used to do winter exercises for three or four weeks under helicopters and without any vehicles. The strange thing is you become acclimatized to the weather. I found that coming home afterwards I'd be uncomfortable by the heat of the house while I'd been perfectly comfortable in an arctic tent. (Except the air mattresses - I hated those damn things - always froze my shoulder and hip)

There are always tradeoffs, but IMHO the ISV is a perfectly acceptable option to walking for that wheels-friendly European road network some of you keep touting. BvS10 for off road bush etc sure - but remember they come in at contract prices for an all up cost of just under $2 million each while these ISVs come in at around $0.4 million. I think for a UOR purchase - its pretty good.

As much as I enjoyed being a youngster bombing around Calgary Trails by dark of night in an open top M151 in January snow, wearing a Korean vintage parka I have to note that in my short and entirely uneventful career I saw more hypothermia and frostbite cases than bullet wounds.

I even saw a hyperthermia case in winter - caused by overly efficient Korean war togs and over-exertion. The victim failed to ventilate appropriately and his chain of command, me, failed to supervise him appropriately. He recovered after about an hour in an ambulance and continued the exercise.

 

[KevinB]

these ISVs come in at around $0.4 million. I think for a UOR purchase - its pretty good.

say what? $400k for a stripped down Chevy Z72 Colorado? The US Army cost for the prototypes was 33k a pop

The contract cost down here is less than 28k

I’m really hoping you meant 40k Cdn not 400k

 

[McG]

The announcement was that “Canada announces 35.8M investment” in these vehicles. But that is not a simple division exercise to get the acquisition cost of each vehicle. The contract also includes integrated logistics support and up to two years of spare parts for the LTV fleet … so not everything we are paying out is vehicle acquisition cost. There is probably also the costs for initial vendor training & for operator manuals in that contract. Govt also has a tendency to include other departmental costs when describing the cost of a project. It is possible that the $35.8M includes military & civilian pay for the project team, the cost of any RAMD, the TD costs for OEM visits, etc.

 

[Fabius]

Another cost that can be significant is the shipping cost of the vehicles from factory to wherever we want to take delivery.
I would not be surprised that there are shipping costs to Latvia in that price.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The announcement was that “Canada announces 35.8M investment” in these vehicles. But that is not a simple division exercise to get the acquisition cost of each vehicle. The contract also includes integrated logistics support and up to two years of spare parts for the LTV fleet … so not everything we are paying out is vehicle acquisition cost. There is probably also the costs for initial vendor training & for operator manuals in that contract. Govt also has a tendency to include other departmental costs when describing the cost of a project. It is possible that the $35.8M includes military & civilian pay for the project team, the cost of any RAMD, the TD costs for OEM visits, etc.

And don't forget the need to 'Candianize' them with items such as....

https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/jzuubq/tactical_tim_hortons_holder_basically_just

 

[FJAG]

say what? $400k for a stripped down Chevy Z72 Colorado? The US Army cost for the prototypes was 33k a pop

The contract cost down here is less than 28k

I’m really hoping you meant 40k Cdn not 400k

No. No. I was referring to the overall contract price for the Cdn purchase and the European BvS10 one so as to get a feel for overall contract cost comparison. It's admittedly an apples and oranges thing vis a vis the actual per vehicle cost which is, of course, much lower than the $400k cited.

All that I'm saying is that for a given budget you can get a lot more ISVs than BvS10s and thereby give mobility to a larger number of troops.

As much as I enjoyed being a youngster bombing around Calgary Trails by dark of night in an open top M151 in January snow, wearing a Korean vintage parka I have to note that in my short and entirely uneventful career I saw more hypothermia and frostbite cases than bullet wounds.

I even saw a hyperthermia case in winter - caused by overly efficient Korean war togs and over-exertion. The victim failed to ventilate appropriately and his chain of command, me, failed to supervise him appropriately. He recovered after about an hour in an ambulance and continued the exercise.

Much of the basis for those statistics has to do with the fact that during our respective careers no one was shooting at us. (At least on purpose - I've had some splinters whip past uncomfortably close). Properly equipped and led, weather is a factor that can be dealt with. Bullets ...

There is a reason why the Brits still use open vehicles like the old Land Rover RWMIK and the Jackel and the Coyote for certain light roles.

IMHO there are three infantry vehicle classes that an army needs to have - Infantry fighting vehicles at the heavy armoured and armed end; lightly armoured or unarmoured vehicles for mobility of very light forces; and moderately armoured protected mobility vehicles (either tracked or wheeled) for the basic mechanized infantry role. Personally, I think that the LAV fits the last role albeit we try to have it border on the IFV role. The ISV fits that second ultra-light role. It's important to note that the ISV is transportable inside a CH-47 and can be air dropped.

 

[daftandbarmy]

IMHO there are three infantry vehicle classes that an army needs to have - Infantry fighting vehicles at the heavy armoured and armed end; lightly armoured or unarmoured vehicles for mobility of very light forces; and moderately armoured protected mobility vehicles (either tracked or wheeled) for the basic mechanized infantry role. Personally, I think that the LAV fits the last role albeit we try to have it border on the IFV role. The ISV fits that second ultra-light role. It's important to note that the ISV is transportable inside a CH-47 and can be air dropped.

You forgot the most important Infantry carrier... the LPC.

Unfit troops need trucks more

 

[McG]

And don't forget the need to 'Candianize' them with items such as....

No actually. A UOR will typically go for pure MOTS to include accepting equipment that won’t stand-up to a Wainwright winter or which cannot legally be operated in Canada because it is incompatible our spectrum management.

 

[OldSolduer]

No actually. A UOR will typically go for pure MOTS to include accepting equipment that won’t stand-up to a Wainwright Winnipeg or Shilo winter or which cannot legally be operated in Canada because it is incompatible our spectrum management.

FTFY

 

[KevinB]

Another cost that can be significant is the shipping cost of the vehicles from factory to wherever we want to take delivery.
I would not be surprised that there are shipping costs to Latvia in that price.

Okay, or you could have FMS’d them for about 35k Cdn each had 1-2 guys do the paperwork for that.

Shipping light vehicles to Latvia should not cost a lot unless you airmail them.

 

[Kirkhill]

No. No. I was referring to the overall contract price for the Cdn purchase and the European BvS10 one so as to get a feel for overall contract cost comparison. It's admittedly an apples and oranges thing vis a vis the actual per vehicle cost which is, of course, much lower than the $400k cited.

All that I'm saying is that for a given budget you can get a lot more ISVs than BvS10s and thereby give mobility to a larger number of troops.


Much of the basis for those statistics has to do with the fact that during our respective careers no one was shooting at us. (At least on purpose - I've had some splinters whip past uncomfortably close). Properly equipped and led, weather is a factor that can be dealt with. Bullets ...

There is a reason why the Brits still use open vehicles like the old Land Rover RWMIK and the Jackel and the Coyote for certain light roles.

IMHO there are three infantry vehicle classes that an army needs to have - Infantry fighting vehicles at the heavy armoured and armed end; lightly armoured or unarmoured vehicles for mobility of very light forces; and moderately armoured protected mobility vehicles (either tracked or wheeled) for the basic mechanized infantry role. Personally, I think that the LAV fits the last role albeit we try to have it border on the IFV role. The ISV fits that second ultra-light role. It's important to note that the ISV is transportable inside a CH-47 and can be air dropped.

The Brits also used these vehicles



When it is flaming perishing outside even the toughest nuts prefer warm, dry and a hot bevvy.

They do indeed work with open vehicles.

But you would see a lot more of these



than these

 

[FJAG]

When it is flaming perishing outside even the toughest nuts prefer warm, dry and a hot bevvy.

Latvia isn't that. The mean low in February is -1*C. The minimum low is -4*C. The mean high for July is 18*C with a max of 22*C. The average rainfall year round varies from 1 to 3" per month. It's a temperate climate with periods of a "damp" cold but not "flaming perishing."

Do not conflate a UOR for vehicles for a light infantry battalion for Latvia with the other elements of the Light Utility Vehicle project of the Light Forces Enhancement program.

 

[Kirkhill]

Latvia isn't that. The mean low in February is -1*C. The minimum low is -4*C. The mean high for July is 18*C with a max of 22*C. The average rainfall year round varies from 1 to 3" per month. It's a temperate climate with periods of a "damp" cold but not "flaming perishing."

Do not conflate a UOR for vehicles for a light infantry battalion for Latvia with the other elements of the Light Utility Vehicle project of the Light Forces Enhancement program.

Coming back to this one just because - dog with a bone.

There are about 20,000 hypothermia--related deaths a year in Britain, about 25,000--in the USA, 8,000 deaths a year in Canada. There are suggestions that the unofficial number of hypothermia--related deaths is substantially higher, particularity in the elderly.

The old Prairie line "It's a dry cold!" has a deal of truth in it.

Latvia and the Baltics are as damp and dreich as Britain but also colder.

More Brits die of hypothermia than Canadians (even adjusted per capita) because damp woolies leach the heat out of you faster than dry thinsulate.

If ISV and Latvia then SOCEM better be real good.
....

Correct me if I'm wrong but the purpose of the ISV is simply to get troops from barracks to the front with their kit, rapidly and in good shape.

 

[Kirkhill]

For the price you are paying for the ISVs why not just by these - and stay warm and dry?

 

[Edward Campbell]

The announcement was that “Canada announces 35.8M investment” in these vehicles. But that is not a simple division exercise to get the acquisition cost of each vehicle. The contract also includes integrated logistics support and up to two years of spare parts for the LTV fleet … so not everything we are paying out is vehicle acquisition cost. There is probably also the costs for initial vendor training & for operator manuals in that contract. Govt also has a tendency to include other departmental costs when describing the cost of a project. It is possible that the $35.8M includes military & civilian pay for the project team, the cost of any RAMD, the TD costs for OEM visits, etc.

It used to be standard (back when I was involved and dinosaurs roamed the earth) that the initial acquisition costs for almost everything almost always included 27 months of spare parts (on a scale agreed by DND's engineers and the vendor) and sundry project management costs.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Coming back to this one just because - dog with a bone.

20k hypothermia deaths in USA vs 8k in Canada.

Per capita that's pretty shit.

 

[Kirkhill]

Per capita that's pretty shit.

20,000 / 67,000,000 Brits - 30/100,000
8,000 / 40,000,000 Canadians - 20/100,000

Rising damp and wet wellies.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Must be a Commonwealth thing. Them revolutionary folks have a much better ratio. The tea makes us weak.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Coming back to this one just because - dog with a bone.

There are about 20,000 hypothermia--related deaths a year in Britain, about 25,000--in the USA, 8,000 deaths a year in Canada. There are suggestions that the unofficial number of hypothermia--related deaths is substantially higher, particularity in the elderly.

The old Prairie line "It's a dry cold!" has a deal of truth in it.

Latvia and the Baltics are as damp and dreich as Britain but also colder.

More Brits die of hypothermia than Canadians (even adjusted per capita) because damp woolies leach the heat out of you faster than dry thinsulate..

20,000 / 67,000,000 Brits - 30/100,000
8,000 / 40,000,000 Canadians - 20/100,000

Rising damp and wet wellies.

Can you provide a link to your statistics? I'm not disputing your figures (yet?), but making a connection between the potential for cold (and heat) casualties based on "damp woolies" and using it as argument for enclosed and heated tactical vehicles in a temperate climate can lead to m/s injuries due to stretching. If you dived deeper (I haven't yet), you might find that many of those excess winter deaths (EWD) were secondary to hypothermia and mainly in the elderly and frail. You may also find that the "exposure to the cold" that leads to some of those deaths was in their homes not outside.

Both heat and cold increase risk of death in England and Wales but rates vary across geographical areas and population groups | LSHTM

Each year in England and Wales, there were on average nearly 800 excess deaths associated with heat and over 60,500 associated with cold between 2000 and 2019, according to a new study published in The Lancet Planetary Health.

www.lshtm.ac.uk