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"Men's"/whatever "Christmas"/whatever Dinner (merged)

Michael OLeary

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I‘m looking for early references to Soldiers‘ (Mens‘) Christmas Dinner. The ones I have found follow:

The troops "enjoyed" Christmas Dinner in the open today, a drizzling rain adding to the merriment. The food was good, and much credit is due to Sgt. Val Alcock, the untiring [RCR] sergeant-cook. Each company sent one platoon at a time back to rear BHQ, which is now Command Post, starting at eleven o‘clock this morning. They queued up and received the usual Yuletide  foodstuffs -- canned turkey, plum pudding, etc. If they were lucky they found a box or a heap of rubble to sit on while eating it hulked under their gas capes. -  31 Dec, 1943, S. Galloway, Some Died at Ortona

      Christmas was unlike any I had ever celebrated. Our Battery cooks made use of an outside Italian oven where they performed culinary marvels. We had a makeshift Christmas tree on which the lads put gifts of cigarettes for the adult Italians and candy and gum for the children. The officers served the men what I thought was a very good dinner. The turkeys were perfectly cooked in the outside oven. Altogether I managed to assemble six pints of beer, two bottles of Scotch, and a bottle of Portuguese port. Of this I drank one beer, sharing the rest and my Christmas cake with the Command Post people. The Scotch I gave to the gunners who were visibly appreciative.
      Throughout the day, the guns were silent on both sides. The Forward Observation Officer came in, and, as always, we were relieved to see him and his signaller and to hear how much worse things were with the infantry than with us. The F.O.O.‘s party polished off the port. - Alexander M. Ross, Slow March to a Regiment, 1993

The fifth day of the battle [of Ortona] was December 25, and the fighting went on. Most Canadians got a few hundred yards back from the fighting for an hour or two, long enough for Christmas dinner behind a wall or in a barn or -- in the case of the Seaforth Highlanders -- in the battered Church of Santa Maria di Constantinopoli. This is an extract from a diary kept by the Seaforth padre, Roy Durnford:
        ...C company came first at eleven o‘clock, A company at one, and so on until seven at night. The men looked tired and drawn, as well they might, and most who came directly from the town were dirty and unshaven. "Well," I said, "at last I‘ve got you all in church!" The floor had been cleared and tables set up, and it was heartwarming to see the tablecloths and chinaware some of the boys had scrounged, and the beer, cigarettes, chocolate, nuts, oranges and apples. There was soup, roast pork with applesauce, cauliflower, mashed patatoes, gravy, Christmas pudding and mince pies -- all excellent and a credit to the cooks. Plates were heaped high with as much as any man could eat.
        The tables filled and emptied and filled again, and I saw many a tense face relax in the warmth within the walls of the battlescarred church. What a concert of noise! As relief and relaxation took hold, the talk became louder and greetings and jokes were shouted. The cookers hissed and sizzled behind the altar and the plates clattered as they were cleared from the tables and piled high on the altar itself.  Desecration of the Lord‘s Table? It did not strike me so. Above the din one could sometimes hear machine-gun fire and shells. It was wonderful to hear so much laughter so close to so much death and suffering. - Past Combat Experience, Infantry Journal, Fall 1982
 
I‘m not sure if you knew this, but every year the Seaforth Highlanders recreate that same Ortona Christmas dinner. The parade square gets draped in cam net, and we have the same menu that the men had AT Ortona. It‘s been going on every year since the end of the war, and it‘s coming up again soon. If I get the chance, I‘ll take some pictures of the one this year. Smoky Smith and many other Ortona vets are always there, and it‘s always a good time.
 
the Ortona Dinner is also frequently attended by LER Veterans who were at the battle. I think the custom of a Men‘s Christmas Dinner is universal within the CF at this point, with subtle variations from unit to unit.

as far as Ortona goes, I recommend the book "the D-Day Dodgers" (an account of Canadians in Italy 1943-45).

Or, from Martin Tolton‘s website. . . .

On the 20th, 2nd Brigade under the command of Brig. B.M. Hoffmeister, began it‘s advance on the Town of Ortona. It didn‘t take long to discover that the Germans were determined to hold Ortona. The fighting that ensued was some of the most difficult that the Canadian Division had experienced in Italy. The fight was carried on by the Loyal Edmonton Regiment, and the Seaforths.

Ortona is a small town. At the time, only 500 yards wide. The streets were very narrow and the houses, three to four stories high, were wall to wall, and back to back. Armour and Artillery support was difficult at such close quarters. Defended by the 1st Parachute Division, the streets were well covered by fire, and snipers. Many of the building ad been booby trapped.

It was during this fighting on Christmas Day, that the Quartermaster; Captain D.B. Cameron, and his staff had arranged a Christmas dinner in the Church of Santa Maria di Constantinopoli. the four companies were rotated one at a time from the front only a few hundred yards away, to the Church. For some of the men it was their last Christmas dinner, enjoyed with all the fixings, on white table cloths.

The fighting continued until sometime before first light, December 28, 1943, when under the cover of darkness the 1st Parachute Division withdrew from Ortona.

The Seaforths remained in Italy until 1945. Fighting through the Liri Valley, and breaking through the Hitler Line on the 23rd of May, 1944. The Hitler Line, was the costliest battle in the War for the Seaforths. The Battalion suffered 210 casualties, including 49 men and 3 officers killed.

Or, from the official Battalion website (maintained by our good friend Combat_Medic)

What started as a strike at the "soft underbelly" of the Axis alliance now became a grinding, step-by-step, river-by-river drive up the Italian peninsula against an enemy who proved to be masterful in the defense. The attacking Canadian 1st Division encountered German forces dug in in a gully outside of Ortona--a natural obstacle that the Germans had considerably strengthened with mines and strongpoints. Casualties among the attackers were heavy; rains soon turned the battlefield into a swamp; and, worst of all for the Canadians, British maps of the countryside turned out to be wildly inaccurate. The battle was the Italian campaign in microcosm. It dragged on for 20 days of heavy fighting, as the Germans, reinforced by a paratroop division, fought fiercely for every inch of ground. The Canadians, with heavy armor support, finally pierced the gully. The Germans retreated to Ortona, and dug in there. Another week was required to dig them out of the town. Facing a still unbroken front, and with his assaulting Canadian troops mauled, Montgomery would have to try again in 1944. The German High Command considered a counterattack at this point, but the plan was squashed by Hitler himself, who considered it suicidal in the face of Allied superiority in the airpower.

The fighting continued until some time before first light Tuesday, 28 December 1943, when, under the cover of darkness, the 1st Parachute Division withdrew from Ortona.
 
It‘s packed away somewhere, so I can‘t provide a specific reference but I enjoyed the book "Ortona" by Mark Zuehlke. I am reasonably sure it talked about the dinner in there, and I think a photo too.
 
Actually, the photo in question:
dinner.jpg


is not really of the Ortona Dinner, though it‘s commonly thought to be. There aren‘t any pictures of the dinner itself.
 
I‘d like to thank everyonw for the replies thus far. Actually, I‘m wondering if anyone has references to Mens‘/Soldiers‘ Christmas Dinners that are earlier that the Second World War.
 
Mr O‘Leary,

the feeding of the troops by those placed over them (in the British Commonwealth context) actually goes back over a thousand years.

It was the norm in pre-Norman Invasion of England (1066) that the chieftan of the tribal group (clan etc) on the great feast day of the year would feed those who served him (pre PC days). This eventually became Christ‘s Day - from the christian missionaries in the east lands (Germany) who adopted the pagan day of celebrating the winter solistice (the darkest day) as the lords day.

So it was an accepted habit to serve the underlings who had served and protected you, on this Christ‘s day.

As a purely military custom it is first recorded during the English Civil War with the Colonels of Parliment‘s Army‘s regiments feeding the troops, with their subordinate officers assisting. Well established by the late 17th Century, developing into the form that we know today.

Of interest two armies that owed much to Britain adopted the custom:
The Hanoverian Army, the nation of Hanover belonging to Britain for many years until 1837 - which having been conqured by the French under Napoleon had a free army (the King‘s German Legion) fighting with the British. The Germanic nations of that time celebrating Christmas far more than the British. By the time the KGL was fighting in the Peninsular with Wellington, the custom of officers and Senior NCO‘s serving the troops was well adopted. They taking it back to their homeland after 1815, and it became adopted by the other Germanic states Armies. Still extant today.

As an aside due to the German influence in the French Foreign Legion, the custom was so adopted back in the late 1800‘s.

The Portuguese Army that was reformed by the British after the French conquest, was mainly officered by Briton‘s. They introducing the custom, after they left in the 1820‘s the custom remained, only in a different form to what the Commonwealth is familiar with.

It is common to all Commonwealth Armies which have a christian base (such as the Indian and Pakistani ect do not) for which it is appropriate, although many individual regiments do on their main religious feast day have a similar event.

It is quite well recorded in the military literature.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney
 
Thanks Jock. I have no doubt that it is well recorded, it just has not been a point of note throughout my own reading and research. I was, therefore, caught off guard recently by a question regarding the provenance of the Christmas Dinner. Your comments as well as the others posted here will provide some excellent background for a response, or a referral to the board.

Thanks again.

Mike
 
Thank‘s Jock,
After all these year‘s I finaly know.
 
A little out of season, but here‘s an online reference I found on the DHH website: http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=hertra&FaqID=87#answer .

Question
What are the origins of the Christmas dinner?

Answer
A custom peculiar to the military is the Christmas tradition of role reversal. The youngest member switches places with the commanding officer for the day, the officers serve dinner to the non-commissioned members and they in turn serve dinner to the stewards. All these activities stem from the ancient Roman custom of Saturnalia.

The festival of Saturnalia honors Saturn and falls at the same time as Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and/or Kwanzaa. Christmas decorations such as swathes, garlands, wreaths and tree ornaments began with the merriment of Saturnalia.

During the time of Saturnalia slaves and children got to be waited on for meals, lead the rituals, and participated in the revelry as if they were their parents/masters. The parents/masters jokingly played the part of children and slaves by waiting on them. The role reversal was symbolic as slaves were not really free to make decisions as free persons nor were children able to enter into contracts or make business deals. Role reversal was only for minor privileges.

As with the ancient Romans the Canadian Forces today practices role reversal in terms of minor privileges and in the spirit of good cheer. Although, the origins of the custom cannot be traced to any specific event or even time period, it has however become a ‘standard‘ practice from at least the 18th Century.

Before the introduction of mechanization and sophisticated systems of logistics in the 20th century, enlisted personnel occupied much of their time in tedious routine. In an effort to boost morale, and to show general appreciation for junior ranks, officers took it upon themselves to organize celebrations for the enlisted ranks. One tradition that has been preserved over the ages has been Christmas dinner. Officers and senior non-commissioned officers not only organize the dinner, but they also prepare and serve it to the junior ranks of their unit. When the dinner is over their task is not complete until they clean up the cafeteria.

On this special occasion, one tradition can be found throughout the Forces during the Christmas season. During these festive times, rules are bent in a playful way. Commanding Officers frequently switch roles and tunics with the youngest member of the unit. This soldier then becomes the honorary commander for the day. The remainder of the officers and the warrant officers and sergeants exchange their jackets and tunics for chef's hats and aprons. The practice of exchanging jackets between the senior private and the RSM is a fairly recent innovation, and is indicative of the RSMs important position as an advisor to the CO and as a conduit between the members of the unit and the senior command structure.

Specific traditions during the Christmas season can vary amongst environments and units in the Canadian Forces, For example, in the navy, Christmas lights and decorations have been used to decorate trees, streets, buildings and a ship's yardarms. In many cases there is an active competition to see has the best decorations.
 
On this special occasion, one tradition can be found throughout the Forces during the Christmas season. During these festive times, rules are bent in a playful way. Commanding Officers frequently switch roles and tunics with the youngest member of the unit. This soldier then becomes the honorary commander for the day. The remainder of the officers and the warrant officers and sergeants exchange their jackets and tunics for chef's hats and aprons. The practice of exchanging jackets between the senior private and the RSM is a fairly recent innovation, and is indicative of the RSMs important position as an advisor to the CO and as a conduit between the members of the unit and the senior command structure.
It is the youngest private and CO who ‘exchange‘ tunics and the senior Cpl and RSM who usually ‘exchange‘ tunics.

GW
 
At Christmas 1915, the 81st Battalion,CEF, dined on a heifer donated by H. F. Kennedy, the Toronto livestock commissioner, for having "the least number of drunks among the Battalions" then stationed in Toronto.

"It was expected that the Battalion [102nd] would be in the trenches on Christmas Day, so the Companies held their Christmas dinner at the Hotel Moderne in Bruay on 14 and 15 December [1917]".
 
not to derail the thread but I‘ve read several books all of which have the photo of "christmas at Ortona" in it all crediting it as... well christmas at Ortona. The question is what is it a picture of in reality? It seems obvious that it was taken of Canadian troops in the 2nd world war. It would have to have been taken in Europe? can anyone discern any details from the pic if a larger version were to be posted. I have a much larger scan but no where to host it if anyone wants to pursue that.
 
Yup - it was in Europe (Ortona was in Italy, and still is)

I know I‘ve seen a description which says the unit, but I‘ll have to look it up ... (however, I‘m fairly certain they were Highlanders of some sort)

As for the building ... hmmm ... no - I won‘t guess, I‘ll look it up.

(oh, for crying out loud ... I think the information you‘re looking for is already IN this post, if it‘s the photo that Combat Medic posted ... sigh ...)
 
Perhaps I‘m an idiot. i‘ve scoured thsi thread 4 times now All I see is Combat medic stating that the crediting of the picture as the Christmas in Ortona is erroneous but no one addreses what it is a picture of. I‘m more than happy to be corrected if my eyes have missed the answer to my question (my glasses are getting thicker with time)
 
It‘s a photo of the men having their Crimbo Dinner that day.

They were given a few hour‘s off the line for their dinner and whent back up on the line so other‘s could have their Dinner and the rotation whent all through the day into the night so every one in the Regiment in Ortona could have Crimbo Dinner.

It‘s a real photo as I have seen it in the Seaforth‘s Armouries and met a few of the Vet.‘s

One inperticuler was of Italian decent and came from N.Van. and was the Uncle of a fellow Sapper and he told us quite a bit of the Italian Campaign with the Froth even Ortona.
 
What are your thoughts on the following:

This years Men's Christmas Dinner at our Reserve Unit will include spouses, girl/boyfriends of the soldiers, for a minimal cost, be they the guest of Jr. or Snr NCO or Officer.

Some think its a good idea, allow family and friends to participate, especially during the holiday season,

Some think its breaking with tradition, this was a time for Senior NCO's to serve their troops supper as a way to say thank-you for the hard work.  Now, not only serving the troops they are expected to serve the civilian guests as well.

Your thoughts
 
I attended one with guests, we were all in civilian clothes. It was a hell of a party (the MPs came and shut us down twice  ;)) but not the same as the traditional Mess Dinner. I think it would be great if a unit could do both but the money probably isn't there. With guests it was probably the most fun but a lot of great memories (and bun fights) are created the traditional way.  I prefered the traditional Men's Christmas Dinner.
 
I always liked our Soldiers (formerly known as Men's) Christmas Dinner the way it was.  Us, the WOs and Officers served the Jnr Ranks...the promotions mostly happened at this function...and our 2 Sqn's would be together that night so the whole Regimental Family was there.

The Guidon was marched on, the receiving line from the CO down to the newest Sgt...

I dunno.  I don't see a 'problem' with it myself, but...given the choice?  I would rather it be members of The Regiment myself.  Have a seperate "open house" function but...I think the Soldiers Dinner should be for just that...the Soldiers.

But...

Interesting point here with the last thing I said is...if it IS the Soldiers Dinner..and the soldiers want their guests there...aren't we denying them what they want at THEIR dinner to make it Regimental Family only?

Now I have myself confused...
 
We have the traditional dinner. Officers serve the food, WOs & Sgts serve the beer. Guests show up for the dance and party after the dinner is complete.
 
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