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MGS/MMEV dead yet?

.....And as I said in the other Topic,  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44423/post-405802.html#msg405802  the MGS would have done more harm to the Armour Corps than good, so the CDS and Minister, both being 'Black Hatters' is a ridiculous premise.
 
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0a9b5efa-4d55-4084-a1f5-cdb772194175&k=24613
 
Letter just sent to the Ottawa Citizen:

'Is there any other kind?

A front-page headline July 8 reads: "Army backtracks on plan to ditch armoured tanks".
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f103c834-10c6-4e79-971b-1e6ab894ef34
I await your headline that says: "Air Force plans to buy flying airplanes".

The same edition has another story on this subject, "The return of the Leopard". 
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=95b4c9e5-de13-4425-bc87-218c1031583c
This is accompanied by a photograph captioned "Mobile Gun System".  But the vehicle has no gun.  The photo is actually of the Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle, also mentioned in the story.  Dear me.'

I await the jokes about "flying airplanes" from commenters here.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
Letter just sent to the Ottawa Citizen:

'Is there any other kind?

A front-page headline July 8 reads: "Army backtracks on plan to ditch armoured tanks".
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f103c834-10c6-4e79-971b-1e6ab894ef34
I await your headline that says: "Air Force plans to buy flying airplanes".

The same edition has another story on this subject, "The return of the Leopard". 
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=95b4c9e5-de13-4425-bc87-218c1031583c
This is accompanied by a photograph captioned "Mobile Gun System".  But the vehicle has no gun.  The photo is actually of the Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle, also mentioned in the story.  Dear me.'

I await the jokes about "flying airplanes" from commenters here.

Mark
Ottawa

Why do they have to fly.....conservatives?....Oh.., not Liberal "never will see said airplanes" deal....understand now....I think... :(
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Maybe we will get 66 Leopard 2s vice 66 MGS :D
66 is such a "merde de taureau" number that it virtually makes me vomit.  Consider this:
"Whole fleet management" requires that the number of vehicles to be deployed at a certain level (eg: squadron) be based in Montreal (?).  Another same set of numbers with a unit for training.  Then add a third set of same amount of vehicles for the first line deployment.  So far, none have been allocated to the school.  So, a fourth set of vehicles.  That's 16 vehicles per, remainder of 2. 
So, with LdSH (RC): 16 vehicles (training up for deployment)
In "whole fleet management" storage: 16 (for "just in case")
First line of deployment (eg: over in the Sandbox, or whereever): 16
Royal Canadian Armour School: 16 (for training with Tactics school on Combat Team Commanders' course, for"phase IV" training, as well as "Phase III" as well as 3A Crew commander and 3B Troop Warrant courses, etc.
Strategic Reserve: 2 (in case of war, break glass!)
Embarrassing?  Yes!
(Reminds me of Jay Leno shortly after 9/11.  The joke went something like this in his monologue:
"Canada has pledged to fight along side us against those who committed these attacks.  They said that we can borrow their tank."
)
Now, the SCTF is "supposed" to have a Direct Fire Squadron with them as well.  So, again, for every 1 vehicle, you need 3 for the same reason: 1 to actually "go over", one for training up, and the third for "whole fleet management".  Are we at 8 vehicles per user now?
Here's a novel idea (copyright 2006: Garvco Industries Incorporated)
Purchase a tank (Leo 2A6?  M1A2 SEP?  Whatever) with the following allocation to units
Royal Canadian Armour School: 19 (enough for a squadron at 4 per troop and 3 for SHQ)
Royal Canadian Dragoons: 59 (3 squadrons and two for RHQ)
Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians): 59 (same as for RCD)
12e Regiment Blinde du Canada: 59 (la meme chose)
Keep the Recce squadrons OUT of those three regiments.  Make them tankers, and tankers only (less the assault troops, naturally.  Oh, yes, reactivate the assault troops) ;)
Stand up "Channel 8" (8 CH) as a recce regiment with 3 recce squadrons.
Here's how "Feldmarschall von Garvin" would then make things happen:
First line of deployment: one armour regiment (for sake of argument, RCD, as part of 2 CMBG, from which all deployed elements come)
High readiness training: another armour regiment (for sake of argument, LdSH (RC), as part of 1 CMBG, from which all soon-to-be-deployed elements come)
Reconstitution: a third armour regiment (again, sake of argument 12e RBC, as part of 5 GBMC, from which all just-redeployed elements come)
Brigade recce?  With my COA, a squadron from 8 CH would be an Army asset, attached OPCOM to each brigade.  For example, A Squadron attached OPCOM to 1 CMBG (and would be stationed there in Edmonton with the rest of the Brigade).  B Squadron with 2 CMBG (again, stationed in Pet) and C Squadron with 5 GBMC (living the dream in QC!).  Their RHQ would be mostly administrative, and could be anywhere: Moncton?  Sussex?  Gagetown?  Ottawa?  Whereever. 
Either this or add a "D" squadron to each of the three regiments for brigade recce.  Personally I'd prefer that this brigade asset (Recce Squadron) would come from a different regiment so that, for example, the LdSH (RC) wouldn't have to share their gravy boats with those recce dudes.  They would focus instead (and rightly so, I believe) on tank stuff, such as Full Spectrum Operations in the Contempory Operational Environment, or whatever. 

Does this make sense to anyone but me?  Or is this clear as mud?

Over to you for criticism  :warstory:

 
VG

I agree with your plan.  You would of course need even more for the School, War/Strategic Reserve, and your "Whole Fleet Storage", but those numbers would probably add up to another 100 there abouts (on the cheap).

This plan would take us back to the year 1966 when we also had the Fort Garry Horse (Regular Army) and way over 350 Centurian Tanks.

We would also have to bring back the Heavy Troops in the Engineers with Biber, Badger, etc.

Service Bn would also be wise to get MAN Tank Transporters.  Same engines as the Tank, was a nice "Emergency" feature, and the capability to actually "Recover" the tank they were going to pick up.

When did you say you were running for office?  ;D
 
George Wallace said:
When did you say you were running for office?   ;D
What?  Do they elect "Feldmarschalls" now? ;)
If so, start the campaign now!
Of course, I'll have to select a tank.
How about this one:
ogre-mark4.jpg


 
von Garvin said:
66 is such a "merde de taureau" number that it virtually makes me vomit.  Consider this:
"Whole fleet management" requires that the number of vehicles to be deployed at a certain level (eg: squadron) be based in Montreal (?).  Another same set of numbers with a unit for training.  Then add a third set of same amount of vehicles for the first line deployment.  So far, none have been allocated to the school.  So, a fourth set of vehicles.  That's 16 vehicles per, remainder of 2. 
So, with LdSH (RC): 16 vehicles (training up for deployment)
In "whole fleet management" storage: 16 (for "just in case")
First line of deployment (eg: over in the Sandbox, or whereever): 16
Royal Canadian Armour School: 16 (for training with Tactics school on Combat Team Commanders' course, for"phase IV" training, as well as "Phase III" as well as 3A Crew commander and 3B Troop Warrant courses, etc.
Strategic Reserve: 2 (in case of war, break glass!)
Embarrassing?  Yes!
(Reminds me of Jay Leno shortly after 9/11.  The joke went something like this in his monologue:
"Canada has pledged to fight along side us against those who committed these attacks.  They said that we can borrow their tank."
)
Now, the SCTF is "supposed" to have a Direct Fire Squadron with them as well.  So, again, for every 1 vehicle, you need 3 for the same reason: 1 to actually "go over", one for training up, and the third for "whole fleet management".  Are we at 8 vehicles per user now?
Here's a novel idea (copyright 2006: Garvco Industries Incorporated)
Purchase a tank (Leo 2A6?  M1A2 SEP?  Whatever) with the following allocation to units
Royal Canadian Armour School: 19 (enough for a squadron at 4 per troop and 3 for SHQ)
Royal Canadian Dragoons: 59 (3 squadrons and two for RHQ)
Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians): 59 (same as for RCD)
12e Regiment Blinde du Canada: 59 (la meme chose)
Keep the Recce squadrons OUT of those three regiments.  Make them tankers, and tankers only (less the assault troops, naturally.  Oh, yes, reactivate the assault troops) ;)
Stand up "Channel 8" (8 CH) as a recce regiment with 3 recce squadrons.
Here's how "Feldmarschall von Garvin" would then make things happen:
First line of deployment: one armour regiment (for sake of argument, RCD, as part of 2 CMBG, from which all deployed elements come)
High readiness training: another armour regiment (for sake of argument, LdSH (RC), as part of 1 CMBG, from which all soon-to-be-deployed elements come)
Reconstitution: a third armour regiment (again, sake of argument 12e RBC, as part of 5 GBMC, from which all just-redeployed elements come)
Brigade recce?  With my COA, a squadron from 8 CH would be an Army asset, attached OPCOM to each brigade.  For example, A Squadron attached OPCOM to 1 CMBG (and would be stationed there in Edmonton with the rest of the Brigade).  B Squadron with 2 CMBG (again, stationed in Pet) and C Squadron with 5 GBMC (living the dream in QC!).  Their RHQ would be mostly administrative, and could be anywhere: Moncton?  Sussex?  Gagetown?  Ottawa?  Whereever. 
Either this or add a "D" squadron to each of the three regiments for brigade recce.  Personally I'd prefer that this brigade asset (Recce Squadron) would come from a different regiment so that, for example, the LdSH (RC) wouldn't have to share their gravy boats with those recce dudes.  They would focus instead (and rightly so, I believe) on tank stuff, such as Full Spectrum Operations in the Contempory Operational Environment, or whatever. 

Does this make sense to anyone but me?  Or is this clear as mud?

Over to you for criticism  :warstory:

Out of my lane again....sorry that this is becoming a habit.   :p

For me anyway, this just comes down to "With the fixed budget we have, what can do that will best project power into any given theatre to first deter a potential enemy from even considering and attacking, and second if they do attack us, provides us the ability to first take their opening ambush, and then pound the everloving shiiiit out of them."

Since the budget is now in place to create a heavy lift capacity to get whatever we now want to our theatres, we can now engineer what our forces will look like with any vehicle mix we'd like given that additional funds are going to be harder to get.

For me, my first priority remains increasing the minimum protection levels on all vehicles including supply and logistics vehicles because if the enemy is able to choose the time and place of their ambush, they're going to try to hit the softest vehicle possible in order to maximize casualties.  The new medium truck program is a start for the drivers.  The additional Nyala's are even better.  The LAV-III's seem to be doing a great job.  But we have to take G-wagens and anything else that light out of IED/VBD environments.  Ergo, before I bought new tanks I would be expanding our LAV-III fleet so that they make up a larger portion of any deployment (and if we don't have the funds to do that - then go with something a little less expensive like the Aussie Bushmaster vehicles or something).

My second priority would be mine/IED surveillance.  My understanding is that Predator B operates at an altitude too low so that the enemy even if they cannot see them, can hear the buzzing.  I would therefore like to find something that operates at a higher altitude with the highest-end thermal optics to act as an overwatch system feeding live video to the theatre command centre.  Their job is constantly run loops on all the paths & roadways that our forces may travel upon looking for evidence of IED/mine set-ups.  When identified, we can either engage with 155mm, drop a munition from the UAV or use coalition air support (at this point).

My third priority would be unmanned route-proving vehicles with downward and side looking ground penetrating radar.  Quite frankly it's not like you have to get through that much ground to see an IED or mine, so you should be able mount such a configuration on a chassis as small as a heavy four-wheeler.  If something is located, you call in a mine disposal team that is made up of (2) wheeled earth movers, and a couple more remote four wheelers - one of which will actually place an explosive charge over the identified mine/IED, back off, and then blow it up.  The earth moving team then immediately fills back in the hole and away we go.

Now we're at tanks that can act in the role of mobile pill boxes as necessary.  As per the link that Teddy provided one of the posters on Tank-Net hypothesized about putting a small squad of 3-4 Leo C2's at the highest point overlooking a valley with a Coyote and LAV-III escort and the absolute dominance that would provide over that valley.  In my humble opinion, more than the firepower itself, it is the knowledge of the local civilians that the enemy has no ability to dislodge our people from those positions that would be the most important impact because it would bring stability and confidence.  But bottom line is that based on COIN operations perhaps the natural TO&E for our transformation would include squads of MBT's in other regiments as opposed to keeping armour in large standalone units (which we are far less likely to deploy). 

Again way out of my lane here, but what if we created regiments based on the following (by the way I'm already starting to duck-and-cover as I type this because I'm pretty sure I've got my terminology re: unit sizes wrong and so I beg everyone's forgiveness in advance):

(1) Headquarters Troop
___(8 ) Command and Control Vehicles including Air Traffic Control (probably Bison or LAV-III-based)
(1) Intelligence Troop
___(8 ) LAV-III based SIGINT/COMMINT and Tactical UAV Launchers/Retreivers
(1) Tube Artillery Battery
___(4 ) M777 155mm with datalinks to all UAV's and other aircraft
(1) Rocket Artillery Battery
___(4 ) HIMARS with datalinks to all UAV's and other aircraft
(1) Air Defence Battery
___(8 ) LAV-III based vehicles (pick your poison re: missiles)
(2) Engineering and Anti-Mine/IED Troops
___(to be determined, but again preferably based on LAV-III chassis with some remote vehicle support)
(2) Logistics and Support Troops
___(to be determined but based on heavy uparmoured trucks or Bushmaster equivalents)
(1) Aviation Company
___(8 ) CH-47 Heavy Lift Helicopters
___(4 ) Light Recce, Escort Helicopters with focus on thermal optics as opposed to radar

(2) Light Mechanized Squadrons
___(1) Recce Troop (corrected as per GW)
_______(4 ) Coyotes with native tactical ultralight UAV's
_______(4 ) Nyala with upgraded optics
_______(4 ) Route-proving teams (vehicles are TBC)
___(3 ) Light Mechanized Rifle Companies
_______(1 ) Route-proving team (vehicles are TBC)
_______(8 ) LAV-III's (2 with eventual direct fire missile upgrade)
_______(4 ) Nyala

(2) Heavy Mechanized Squadrons
___(1) Recce Troop (corrected as per GW)
_______(4 ) Coyotes with native tactical ultralight UAV's
_______(4 ) Nyala with upgraded optics
_______(4 ) Route-proving teams (vehicles are TBC)
___(3 ) Heavy Mechanized Rifle Companies
_______(1 ) Route-proving team (vehicles are TBC)
_______(8 ) LAV-III's (2 with eventual direct fire missile upgrade)
_______(4 ) Tanks (currently C2, but future model is TBD)

I'll now await summary execution....


Cheers guys,

Matthew.  :salute:


P.S.  If someone actually has any interest to rewrite that with your corrections to reflect proper terminology, I'd be greatly appreciative.
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
My second priority would be mine/IED surveillance.  My understanding is that Predator B operates at an altitude too low so that the enemy even if they cannot see them, can hear the buzzing.  I would therefore like to find something that operates at a higher altitude with the highest-end thermal optics to act as an overwatch system feeding live video to the theatre command centre.  Their job is constantly run loops on all the paths & roadways that our forces may travel upon looking for evidence of IED/mine set-ups.  When identified, we can either engage with 155mm, drop a munition from the UAV or use coalition air support (at this point).

First things first.  This point is backwards.  The Predator operates at a high altitude and is relatively quiet.  It is the Spewer that is noisy and operating at a low altitude and the one that we currently have in our inventory.  If you had read some of the UAV threads, you may have found that it is an advantage in a way, not a disadvantage, that was unexpected.  Taliban tactics for Soviet helicopters and aircraft was to go to ground and allow them to go undetected by the overflight of the aircraft.  With the technology in use today, that is a bonus for us, as they remain stationary and are easily detectable. 

Predator use and information is available to all Coalition Forces, but controlled by the US.  So your point has already been addressed.



PS:  Stop using the term RECON......it is soo...........Gamer Oriented.
 
George Wallace said:
PS:  Stop using the term RECON......it is soo...........Gamer Oriented.

First, I don't play games, but I will cease and desist.  What is the proper terminology I should be using and in what context?

Second, my apologies about the confusion over Sperwar vs Predator but I'm sure I read in an American report that Predator was detectable as well.  And re:  your point about "detection being good" - I would think that having your enemy identifiable, in the open in a position where you can bring deadly force is your best case scenario as opposed to them scurrying away due to the noise when they will invariably come back and try to hit you again, possibly in a place where detection is more difficult.


Matthew.   ???
 
What is the proper terminology I should be using and in what context?

In Canada the term we use is Recce, Recon is an American term.

In regards to the Leo, keep in mind that we are looking at a mixture of operational considerations and political considerations.  With the purchase of C17's we now have a reason to get the Leo's back on line while at the same time appeasing the public with the appearance of fiscal responsibility.  Refurbishment of existing heavy armour is cheaper than buying new and does not involve all the political minefields that capital acquisition entails.  Plus, it can be slid through under the radar using current funding and give breathing space for future equipment purchases.

Unfortunately, this all hinges on getting the C17's in order to get the Leo's in theatre and, with a minority government, there is no guarantee it will happen unless the Conservatives can win a majority. (remember the EH 101)
 
Well, it's nice to see that we've totally rearmed for Kursk - anyone got a plan that's a tad more realistic?  I'm apt to hold out for 2015 and equip the Army with these badboys:

 
Infanteer said:
Well, it's nice to see that we've totally rearmed for Kursk - anyone got a plan that's a tad more realistic?  I'm apt to hold out for 2015 and equip the Army with these badboys:

Yeah, but they already know how to defeat them....gotta find somthing that a piece of rope doesn't defeat.  ;D
 
Infanteer said:
Well, it's nice to see that we've totally rearmed for Kursk - anyone got a plan that's a tad more realistic? 
Does this mean you are on the "tanks are relics of the cold war" bandwagon, off of which (apparently) some of our senior army officers are now jumping?
As I recall, tanks didn't do too well at Kursk, though it wouldn't have been called the Greatest Tank Battle in History without them ;)
They have been doing VERY WELL in Baghdad, though, as well as the Gaza Strip.  There is still a use for a heavily armoured fire breathing dragon in today's COE.

(NB: I almost typed COI instead of COE, as in "Cross of Iron", the first "expansion" gamette to Squad Leader.  For those who don't know, Cross of Iron is "The Game of Armor (sic) Warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-1945")

 
Matthew.   ???

Cdn Blackshirt said:
First, I don't play games, but I will cease and desist.  What is the proper terminology I should be using and in what context?
You have been here long enough to know by now that it is "Recce" (As was pointed out.)
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Second, my apologies about the confusion over Sperwar vs Predator but I'm sure I read in an American report that Predator was detectable as well.  And re:  your point about "detection being good" - I would think that having your enemy identifiable, in the open in a position where you can bring deadly force is your best case scenario as opposed to them scurrying away due to the noise when they will invariably come back and try to hit you again, possibly in a place where detection is more difficult.

If you had read those posts, you would know that the noise of approaching aircraft mean that they would go to ground and lay still, in the open, and remain motionless - not scurry away and hid.  This makes them an easy target.

Or does 670 posts mean that you are sharing this "C/S" with someone else, perhaps more than one other, and none of you really are learning anything?
 
George Wallace said:
Matthew.   ???
You have been here long enough to know by now that it is "Recce" (As was pointed out.)
If you had read those posts, you would know that the noise of approaching aircraft mean that they would go to ground and lay still, in the open, and remain motionless - not scurry away and hid.  This makes them an easy target.

Or does 670 posts mean that you are sharing this "C/S" with someone else, perhaps more than one other, and none of you really are learning anything?

Nope Call Sign not shared....trying to learn....but obviously missing some key posts from time-to-time....certainly not intentionally.


Matthew.  :salute:
 
von Garvin said:
Does this mean you are on the "tanks are relics of the cold war" bandwagon, off of which (apparently) some of our senior army officers are now jumping?

Bah, not by a longshot.  You do remember that I was the guy who liked the Aussie Army chief for saying a lack of modern armour was criminally negligent.

However, I was poking fun at the idea of converting our three armoured regiments into heavily armoured MBT units.  This seems to be unworkable on multiple levels for our Army - especially when you consider our operational focus in the hills of Afghanistan and the primacy of the "Counterinsurgency" in the circles of military thought.  You are correct - MBT's are proving to be quite useful, although not in the manner they were largely defined for (that is, to take out other tanks).  I'll repost the article "Everybody Wanted Tanks: Heavy Forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom for anybody who missed it; it does a good job of pointing out the strength of the MBT and attacking conventional myths about them (ie: they are no good in cities).

Michael Evan's gives a good review of Bruce Gudmundsson's On Armor:

In the future, wheeled armoured vehicles equipped with a number of indirect weapons—turret-mounted mortars, fibre-optic guided missiles, low-calibre automatic cannon and bombardment rockets to deal with ambush and area fire - are likely to emerge and confer greater variety on armoured operations. Nonetheless, despite the potential of wheeled armoured vehicles armed with indirect precision weapons, the heavy tank remains vital in the direct fire fight, particularly in complex terrain such as urban areas. Th ose who believe that indirect-fire wheeled vehicles can substitute for heavy tanks across a full range of combat operations are likelyto be disappointed.

For example, from the 1980s, the Israeli Merkava (Chariot) tank with a hull engine, sloped armour and sufficient space for a four-man infantry team became arguably the most successful ‘low-intensity’ tank of the post–World War II era.  The Merkava has been used against well-armed Palestinian guerrilla groups on the West Bank and Gaza employing rocket-propelled grenades and suicide bombers. While tanks always require protection from infantry and engineers in classic combined-arms operations, in close combat the use of armour remains a lethal capability that professional armies are unlikely to surrender willingly in the foreseeable future.  

In sum, for Gudmundsson, the era of armour based on the all-purpose tank is clearly over and the military future lies in possession of a variety of armoured capabilities ranging from personnel carriers through infantry fighting vehicles to main battle tanks. All of these capabilities are required for the peculiar ‘high–low’ mixture of conventional and unconventional military activities that constitute 21st-century expeditionary operations.  There is no ‘zero sum’ armoured capability available, and Gudmundsson concludes his study neatly when he writes: ‘the age of the tank is over. The age of tanks has begun’.


Going back to a huge armoured formation isn't conducive to this last paragraph.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
Infanteer said:
Going back to a huge armoured formation isn't conducive to this last paragraph.
In reality, what I posited only LOOKS like three armoured regiments.  What we would have would be one regiment deployed at a time (the old 3 to make 1 theory).  So, three squadrons of tanks is all that would be "over there" (whereever "there" may be).  That's all.


Though it may have seemed simpler during the cold war to have a centre of arc on a bearing of 1600 and just fire away! ;)

 
Infanteer said:
....... and Gudmundsson concludes his study neatly when he writes: ‘the age of the tank is over. The age of tanks has begun'.[/i]

Going back to a huge armoured formation isn't conducive to this last paragraph.

Cheers,
Infanteer

I interepreted it differently.  The age of the tank is over, but the age of Tanks (Plural) has begun.   Looks like it is time for a wider variety of Tanks on the Battlefield, and more of them.
 
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