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"MILITARY EXPERT SPEAKS"

Well, I guess it would depend   on three things:

-how the Admiral came across;

-what background he had. If, for example he was one of the Naval officers who have attended Army Staff College, gone to a Joint Staff Course, worked in a Joint HQ or participated in joint exercises, then he could have some credibility; and

-the attitude of the listeners. If they start out by saying " No dumb-*** sailor is gonna tell us nothin'" then it's probably not going to go well.

But really, IIRC, all O'Connor said was:

Conservative defence critic Gordon O'Connor, a retired army general, suggested that submarines are a rather expensive way to go after fishing boats and smugglers... But other types of underwater sensors can do the same thing, Mr. O'Connor said.
The Conservative MP said in a later interview he is keeping an open mind about whether Canada needs subs, but this is an important question as the government conducts a full-scale foreign and defence policy review this fall.

So where's the technical commentary there, that would be impossible for a semi-well informed Army officer (esp at GO level) to know about? He ends up by saying he's keeping an open mind, which I thought was usually a positive thing. Anyway, he's really speaking as a politician rather than an Army officer. Cheers.

 
Umm, guys-

Maybe we should all cool it down a bit.  We are all on the same side here, and in my opinion, we are rapidly approaching the "AAirborneRegiment zone" whereby the next intemperate or sensational story that hits the front page wrt submarines will cause the government to kneejerk us (the CF) out of the sub business.  For those of you on the board who were in Petawawa for the disbandment, I need not remind you of that mess.  For those of you who never experienced it- you don't want to wish it on your worst enemy- even the Navy deserves better.  I mean, when has losing a capability ever been "better" for the CF?  Can anyone tell me?

Now as for submarines- I think we need them as part of a well-rounded military. Here is why:

1.  Submarines provide a third dimension to sea control (the other two are aircraft and surface ships).  No one or two elements can exert perfect control the way all three together can.  All three parts have strengths and weakness- aircraft are weather and endurance limited but can relocate quickly; ships are not especially steathstealthyan remain on station for long periods of time and have lots of firepower (generally); diesel submarines are stealthy and are unmatched vehicles for tracking surface and sub-surface contacts, but tend to be slow.  

2.  As a maritime nation, we need a strong navy.  This should be axiomatic.  For those who say that "hey- lets just plant sensors everywhere and monitor what comes in and out of our waters", I say- not good enough.  To exert sovereignty over one's territory, it is not enough just to know what it is going, we must have the capability to back up, with force if necessary, our position.  Because subs are so hard to find, it takes alot of resources to counter them (I have first hand experience on this point).  Anyone contemplating naval action against us (or our allies) must take that into account.  for those of you who say "those days are over- no country will ever be a naval threat to us again", I say don't be so sure- it happened three times in the past 100 years (WW1, WW2 and the Cold war).  Submarines, and by extension naval warfare, are not a turnkey affair.  Once the expertise is gone- it is really expensive and time consuming to get it back. Really, we are not talking huge dollars to have a diversified and capable fleet that includes subs.  To me, it is cheap insurance.

3.  The best platform to find and kill a submarine is  another submarine. There are over 40 nations that operate subs and not all are friendly to us or our allies.  And for those of you who weren't aware, our shiny new frigates do not directly kill submarines.  They carry a helicopter close enough so it can kill the submarine, but will always stay well out of the sub's range (aircraft are the second best way to find and kill a sub).

4.  The Canadian Navy is still probably the best ASW navy in the world.  This is what we bring to NATO.  We did not get that way by accident.  We learned hard combat lessons in WW2 and we trained like hell against our O-boats from 1965-2000.  I'm not ready to give that up. We also got lots of nuke boat time from the US and Brits for our aircraft and surface ships to train by trading diesel sub time for their forces to use.  Surely, in this day and age where we contribute less and less to our allies, it is not too much to ask to for us to operate subs if for no other reason but to provide training for US Navy Nuke boats who WILL go into harms way from time to time?

5.  Final reason- it is called water space management (WSM).  If we are not submarine operators in NATO, we no longer have the right to be informed of submarine movements anywhere in the world.  How, exactly, does not having that information enhance our sovereignty?

6.  Final, final reason.  Subs can infiltrate/exfiltrate special forces very easily.  Nice policy option for the government, no?

Let us all let the BOI get to the bottom of the fire on CHI.  Hopefully, there will be no more military members "stepping off the reservation" and sounding off to the press on this issue.

Cheers.
 
Re-reading my post, I've noticed that the spellchecker makes things worse, not better.  Hope it is still readable.
 
Well said Tacco. We noticed though when the O-Boats left service training opportunites withe the USN and RN SSNs disappeared rather quickly as their submarines became unavailable.

I would not say we are the best ASW navy now. Back when we had the steamers we were but the changing multi-threat enviroment and introduction of the CPFs and Trumped Iroquois class destroyers we lost a little bit of that expertise as we had to bring ourselves up in a hurry on ASuW and AAW aspects of the triangle.
 
I also agree with us having subs-in fact I see them as an invaluable capability. Further, I would like to see our Navy more capable, (not less) of being a full partner in a truly joint force expeditionary capability. My only point was to defend O'Connor's ability to speak, not to agree with him. The End. Cheers.
 
SeaKing Tacco is absolutely right about "approaching the Cdn Airborne Regiment zone" which is why I've been so disappointed in Mr. O'Connors' take on the Chicoutimi incident. He's playing politics basically (as are all the other members of SCONDVA, although to be fair he's far from the worst offender) with a capability that the navy, indeed the whole country, need desperately. The opposition smells blood and are using the Chicoutimi to clobber the government, whatever the cost to the navy's ability to control the subsurface environment.
In that regard I think it's critical for ALL members of the CF, serving or ret'd, green, blue, dark blue or purple, to put all the excellent arguments in favour of having subs before the public (arguments SeaKing Tacco makes far more eloquently than I could) The only thing I would add to his precis is the concrete example of how useful Canadian TF and TG commanders in Op Apollo found the French subs attached to their command in the Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf -- they kept them busy for months, tracking suspicious vessels and monitoring Iranian, Pakistani and Indian subs operating in the area.
The public need to hear about this sort of thing: a much-needed antidote to semi-informed opinions about the Upholder class deal ...
 
All of the points made by Sea King Taco have been made in other threads, except for WSM, which is an excellent point - when that policy is actually practiced.  Obviously, the practice is ignored by some players for strategic or perhaps national reasons. It follows then that a nation with a large, resource laden coast line should possess an advanced subsurface fleet, with hunter killer capabilities- not "just in case" but rather, because of an actual need. This is not just a question of having a fleet for training purposes, there are bona fide reasons for maintaining the fleet including meeting the assigned objective of protecting the territorial security of the country. And, having bobbed around there for a while, I can tell you that that security was, and remains, at risk.

If the Navy is failing somewhere in it's attempt to justify the fleet, IMO it is simply being over- cautious with the more recent history of our submarine operations, and for that matter our anti-submarine operations [both foreign and domestic.]  Simply explaining what the submarine fleet and ASW equipment is for and what it might do, is frankly no longer enough. Navy PA had better start doing a better job of convincing the Int cell that more detail must be revealed about what is going on at sea, in our AoO, and on our inner coasts. The policy is of absolute secrecy, while admirable and perhaps even justified for OPSEC purposes, could well prove to be the undoing of the fleet in it's present configuration. This goes a long way to explaining why O'Connor made the comments that he did. Hopefully, he will recieve an education on those matters in short order.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the source of the radar signatures programmed or recorded into CANEWS belonged to fishing boats and smugglers.

 
I would not say we are the best ASW navy now. Back when we had the steamers we were but the changing multi-threat enviroment and introduction of the CPFs and Trumped Iroquois class destroyers we lost a little bit of that expertise as we had to bring ourselves up in a hurry on ASuW and AAW aspects of the triangle.

I think we are still the ASW Navy in the world- everyone else has gotten bad at it at the same rate or faster.   In the Gulf, the USN turned to us whenever a submarine threatened to become a problem because they recognize that we are generally better at it than they are.

I agree that the Navy needs to talk publically a bit more about what is going on in our waterspace and along our coastlines.   I have seen quite a few "interesting" things, but I don't know what is and isn't in the public domain so I will shut up there.  

As for the UPHOLDER class submarine, I worked against HMCS VICTORIA for three weeks last summer.   I cannot speak about her safety or mechanical reliability, but she was the hardest submarine to find that I have ever worked against, and I have found and routinely tracked both US Nuke boats and Chilean Diesel boats (on exercise).   She would give any first world navy a really hard time.   A second or third world navy would not stand a chance against her or her sister boats.   I am proud that we have that much capability in our fleet, even if they (submariners) are the sworn enemy of a Sea King crew   ;)


 
SeaKingTacco said:
As for the UPHOLDER class submarine, I worked against HMCS VICTORIA for three weeks last summer.   I cannot speak about her safety or mechanical reliability, but she was the hardest submarine to find that I have ever worked against, and I have found and routinely tracked both US Nuke boats and Chilean Diesel boats (on exercise).   She would give any first world navy a really hard time.   A second or third world navy would not stand a chance against her or her sister boats.   I am proud that we have that much capability in our fleet, even if they (submariners) are the sworn enemy of a Sea King crew   ;)

I heard the same thing out here from our TACCOs when they were tracking the Windsor. They said they had to ask her to slow down in order to keep up.  Pretty impressive piece of kit if you ask me.

 
Inch said:
I heard the same thing out here from our TACCOs when they were tracking the Windsor. They said they had to ask her to slow down in order to keep up. Pretty impressive piece of kit if you ask me.

So what is the general consensus in the Navy world about these boats? Cheers
 
In regards to Brit Subs there was one point made and that was both their Nuke and Deisel Elec. are the quietest boats in the world.
 
From a navy point a few and most submariners I have talked to they are a good investment, there were a couple that still have their doubts but you will always have someone that does not like a piece of kit. Moral of the story is to believe the word of those that use the kit as they are the SME and not the bureaucrats and fat cats in Ottawa.
 
Since the subject is military experts speaking, would any submariners like to let us see your "wish list"? This could include anything from what the Victoria/Upholder class subs should get in their mid-life refits to "blue sky" stuff ("hey, lets refit the Kursk!").

I would be interested to see what you're thinking.
 
While not military, I do chk background and ATI reports fairly thoroughly.
I ran this by a LCdr(Ret'd) - no names as this site does not do that - who was speaking on CPAC last wednesday about the Victoria-class subs and he noted "You make a number of important points very well.  I am preparing a piece myself, and was struck by the commonality of our thoughts."

I'd actually submitted the following Opinion Piece on Oct 14 but, not surprisingly, the anti-submarine Media did not pick it up.
I myself had two media outlets calling (CBC Calg and Halifax Herald) looking for info (sensationalist scoop) on 'problems or shortfalls' with the submarines.  Although, in deference to the closed-door naval inquiry, two simultaneously open watertight hatches in the conning tower over the control room during extremely heavy sea state - when normally at least one should be closed at all times, at the same time as an open door on a normally waterproof electrical panel, in conjunction with a few inches of highly-conductive saltwater, makes for a major communications oops in situational awareness on the submarine.  Just my, and many submarine engineers, opinion.  :D


Excellent Value for the Money
Common misconceptions about Canada's Victoria-class (ex-RN Upholder-class) submarines.

    The Canadian public seems to be extremely critical about our navy's acquisition of the four Victoria-class submarines from the Royal Navy which does a disservice to our resolute and steadfast submariners.  While some criticisms may be valid in regard to the two nearly simultaneous fires and resultant injuries/death aboard HMCS Chicoutimi (ex-Upholder) - for which the current naval inquiry will reveal a course of rectification, most are misconceptions fed by an ignorant media that tends to blame the military without blaming the true source of the problems.  Most military trouble can be attributed to the Liberal government that voters have kept in power since 1993 - who have consistently starved the Canadian Forces (CF) of the funds needed for proper equipment and sufficient personnel while increasingly deploying them.  Our defence spending at 1.1% of GDP, the second lowest in NATO, is even worse than it appears as only 42% of the defence budget (a mere 6% of the federal budget) goes directly towards the three services, while some C$1 Billion is pension and employee benefits contributions - funding other NATO nations don't include in their defence estimates.

    During Tuesday's (Oct 12) Question Period the Official Leader of the Opposition, Stephen Harper, noted Prime Minister Paul Martin and the Liberals shortchanged the submarine retrofit program by cutting C$54 Million from it during the time Mr. Martin was finance minister.  "This was a deliberate budgetary decision he took. Isn't it true that the Prime Minister's decision left the navy without adequate resources to properly train and equip the sailors?"

    Recent newspaper articles and television commentary (on Global Sunday), by defence analysts and ex-submariners, have let the public know of some of the truth behind the conjecture.  Such as:
1. the massive C$1B operational deficit that the CF labours under - the services simply cannot afford to buy adequate spare parts for our ships; planes and vehicles, let alone the fuel required for deployments, or even adequate light bulbs for base buildings.  Surely this contributes to the delays in getting the Victoria-class fully operational, especially considering the $54M hit to the sub retrofit program.
2. Lack of adequate maintenance personnel for the submarines Canadianization process.  The reduced numbers of maintenance personnel are a direct result of the Liberals cutbacks of the 90s and the navy's massive commitment to the war on terrorism - most remaining personnel were committed to ensuring the surface warships could continously deploy to the Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf.
3. Minor defects, such as the oft-quoted pizza size dent in one of the hulls - easily happens to any ship if bumped hard enough by a tug, while defects happen to most machines constructed nowadays, take the millions of car/truck recalls constantly occuring - sometime parts are defective and require replacement, adequate funding is the main constraint in ensuring that occurs.  Unfortunately, the constraints of #1 and the lack of sufficient maintenance personnel from #2 do not bode well for rapid rectification.
4. The submarines were an excellent deal for our Navy, which acquired four modern submarines, and their associated training infrastructure which has been relocated to Canada, for basically what it would cost to build just one new submarine in Canada.  As noted by DND in 1998, "These submarines are a great purchase for Canada, giving our navy a vital capability at a fraction of what it would otherwise cost", four "virtually new vessels for about the price of a single new one".  The reason the Australians passed on them, prior to their 1987 Collins-class construction contract, was that they required six submarines - restarting construction at VSEL would be prohibitively expensive for an additional two Upholders, without the benefits accruing from local construction.  Although their indigenous multi-billion$ Collins-class have had an even more scandalous reputation and operational history (save for the unfortunate Chicoutimi incident) and are still not fully operational years after completing construction.

    Unfortunately, some of the basic facts seem to keep getting missed, and the media just doesn't pick up on them in their quest for sensationalist stories and their desire to see the disarmament of the CF.  The originally planned twelve ship Type-2400 Upholder-class (reduced to four through 80s defence rationalization) are the conventionally-powered offshoot of the successful nuclear-powered seven-boat Trafalgar-class in service with the Royal Navy.  Basically the same systems, including: sub-launched Harpoon anti-ship missiles, Tigerfish and advanced Spearfish torpedos, whilst optimised for long-range patrol of the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap.  The four briefly served as patrol ships for the British until they were mothballed because they were diesel powered, and the ever cost-conscious UK Treasury decreed a focus on a slimmed-down nuclear fleet in 1994.  Upholder (launched Dec 1986) commissioned into service in June 1990, followed by: Unseen (launched Nov 1989) commissioned June 1991; Ursula (launched Feb 1991) commissioned May 1992; and Unicorn (launched Apr 1992) commissioned June 1993.

[Note: to save money, our navy degraded their 'warfighting' capabilities by conversion to use existing Mk48Mod4 Torpedoes, with no plans to upgrade them to more capable Mk48ADCAP as used by USN, and no acquisition of Sub-Harpoon.]

    Decommissioning occurred fairly rapidly from Apr 1994, including precautionary welding-shut of torpedo-tube doors to prevent water infiltration, with Upholder placed into alongside covered storage at VSEL, joined that year by Unseen (now Victoria) and Ursula (now Cornerbrook), followed by Unicorn (now Windsor) in early-1995, with the extremely-quiet (amongst the top five worldwide) class spending an average of less-than three years in operational service.  In June 1995, the navy made its first formal request to Jean Chretien's cabinet to approve the purchase of the four, relatively fresh, used British subs for about C$750M - though a 'low-cost' barter arrangement. For three years, Ottawa dithered and debated over the deal to scrimp a paltry few million in extra savings [<~C$50M], while the docked subs rusted and their electrical systems began rotting from corrosion due to saltwater exposure, as occurs to any mothballed ship.  [Most definitely Not the fault of the Navy as 'I havn't got a clue what I'm asserting now' Copps asserts]  When Canada finally took them over, the hulls were understandably corroded with rust - due to lack of regular in-service maintenance, their engines malfunctioned, external valves and signal ejectors were faulty due to cracking or corrosion and like the batteries required replacement, plus their sewage disposal systems didn't work.  All pretty much preventable if acquisition had been speedily approved by a government whose first concern should have been to ensure our submariners acquired a modern replacement for the outdated Oberon-class in an expeditious manner.

    The largest misconception seems to be, 'Does Canada really needs a submarine fleet of any description?'  Defence documents indicate the navy's main argument for acquiring the subs remained constant over the past nine years, with the naval brass arguing submarines are "an essential part of balanced maritime forces.  They are highly effective in fisheries protection, drug interdiction and sovereignty operations off the Canadian coastline in our exclusive economic and fishing zones."  Unfortunately, due to political pressure from a government that distances itself from anything percieved to involve actual combat operations, the main reason for their acquisition is regularly omitted.  As noted in a late-90s article 'TOP FLIGHT UPHOLDERS' at  http://www.saoc-central.com/letter.html  [Submariners Assoc Of Canada website], the main reason is 'World wide Submarine Proliferation'.  Considering that our Surface ships and/or Auroras regularly deploy to threat areas, as even nations like Iran have modern quiet Kilo-class diesel subs, the Victorias allow them to have some pratice against the type of threat they may encounter in the Middle East or Asia - a once well-honed skillset that has seriously deteriorated due to funding constriants.  Plus, don't forget that a submarine is always the best method to detect and, if necessary, kill another submarine.  Varying thermal layers of differing temperatures, which submarines are very good at hiding in or behind, do not lend themselves to successful 'sensors on the ocean bed' detection of submarines.
END  :salute:

Also, Ex-Dragoon was correct - while we 'were the best at ASW' we are not the best anymore.
Before naval types jump all over this comment, it is made from the following observations:
1. Period of approx 5 years gap without operational subs to practice against.
2. ATI reports have noted, especially for the Aurora community - and likely similar for the Sea King community, that due to cut-backs in authorized Flying Hours and the prior multi-year Op Apollo committment - ASW skillsets have degraded as aircraft and flight time have just not been available to focus on this skillset.  Any time was focused on force generation and concentration on surface recce.
3. As previously noted, no-few allied subs available to practice against. 
Unfortunately, a 'use it or lose it' skillset.
:cdn:
 
Great post Gobsmacked very accurate and what I have been trying to show. This is one navy type that won't be jumping all over this post.
 
Good post, Bobsmacked!

Concise and informative. 

Maybe you should forward this to the Post?  They may be interested....
 
One submariner did more good today than a tower full of admirals. From the letters page of the Ottawa Citizen:

Monday, October 25, 2004
Almost exactly 35 years ago a tragedy that bore a remarkable similarity to the fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi overtook another Canadian Navy warship.
Canadians need to put these tragedies into perspective: the reality is that there will be mishaps when complex equipment is used by the military.
In 1969, HMCS Kootenay left Plymouth, England, and joined a Canadian Task Group led by HMCS Bonaventure for a return voyage to Canada.
On Oct. 23, during full-power trials, the starboard gearbox in the engine room exploded and a fire swept across the room, killing eight and injuring three others with severe burns. Within minutes the entire ship was filled with thick, oily smoke. It took the firefighting crew three hours to quell the fire. Six crew members were evacuated by helicopter (the infamous Sea King) to Bonaventure, the burn victims and the three most badly affected by smoke inhalation.
Days after the fire, one of the smoke-inhalation victims died on Bonaventure. Almost 60 other crew members had to be hospitalized with smoke-inhalation problems.
A navy board of inquiry investigated the cause of the fire, taking several months to complete its report so that proper testing and investigation could be carried out. The cause was determined to be an improperly installed bearing in the gearbox that had been overlooked during inspection. No parliamentary investigation was ever demanded or held.
HMCS Kootenay entered a long refit and conversion to an Improved Restigouche Class ship. She served honourably for many more years in Canadian naval service.
Little recognition was initially given to the crew for the effort made to save the ship. At the time, Canada had no honours for merit or bravery to give to its servicemen and the first recognition came with letters of commendation from the Nova Scotia government. On the 25th anniversary, a memorial was placed in Point Pleasant Park in Halifax with plaques honouring the nine dead shipmates lost in that tragedy.
The fire on HMCS Chicoutimi was tragic, but before we judge who is to blame, let a proper investigation determine the real cause.

Gordon Forbes,
Orleans
(Lieutenant-commander, ret'd.)
 
I used to wear flat dolphins. There are not that many of us. CANSUBRONONE never had more than 200 bodies at a time, if that many. (I refuse to count the commissioned types that rotated through the wardroom cause sporting a set of dolphins was fashionable. I mopped up more salt water from a Oberon control room deck than those ticketpunchers sailed under.)

So please, gentlemen, do not feel slighted because there have not been more travellers in tubular steel gracing this board. The main reason we haven't been heard from (at least the ones that wore dolphins before subs became non-voluntary and the dolphins started getting handed out with the sarnies and sludge) is because we are feeling quite neurotic.

You see, we are reading the headlines and listening to the experts spout and we are left  dazed, wondering if we are crazy or if the rest of Canada is.

Submariners, the few , the lonely, the ones asking "What the @#$%@#$% planet are you people on" right now.

For starters could someone run that army general through basic map reading and explain what that littl
e scale thingy at the bottom means?  Cause 750 million might get him a basic sensor network to cover the sea approaches to Halifax. Maybe. That leaves just a little bit of oggin uncovered. And with all,  ahem , due respect to the zoomie brotherhood, if there is any platform more expensive than subs, it's gotta be the ones with wings. How many do they need to provide 24/7  coverage to an area for eight weeks?
Oh, before I forget, there is the mystical, magical UAV's. Over the North Atlantic. In winter. Ooookay.

I am not pretending the Victorias can cover the Artic or even provide more than a notional coverage of the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, but on the present budget they are the only thing available to make people wonder if someone they can't see is watching.

This is most certainly not a knee jerk defense of Brit boats. I maintained Brit boats. I sailed on Brit boats. It is safe to say I depised Brit boats. The RN takes a perverse pride in making life miserable for the crews.

Frankly, I am surprised there hasn't been more problems. Lets use some perspective, shall we? A radically different design from the previous class, a two thousand ton platform that never finished sea trials, tied up  and left to rot for ten years, given a bandaid, on the cheap patch job, crews that haven't had sea time in years and people that have never seen a submarine have the arrogance to claim those boats are lemons.

Of course, there is the ventilation problems during the warm weather trials. Let's see, two supercharged locomotive sized diesel engines running in a tight steel tube surrounded by water about 30C. When the engines are stopped and the boat dives, the engine room gets to 60C. Really? Only 60C??? Damn, thats a real improvement on the Oberons. I wonder if they managed to do anything about the rain of 99C condensation in the engine room after a snort. Now that was a pain.

Then there is the corrossion and cracks in the diesel exhaust valves. Real boondoogle, those are. All those valves are supposed to do is allow hot,corrossive diesel exhaust out and when slammed shut in a hurry, keep the -2C corrossive sea water from getting in.
Any cheap civilian valve could handle that kind of thermal shock enviroment, no problem, right?

Submerged signal ejector interlock linkages binding up in cold weather, torpedo tube bow cap seals binding and leaking in hot weather.  What's going on here??? No real navy would have that kind of trouble!!!!  Not more than some damn thing at least once a week, anyway.

Then we have the experts crawling out of the crevices declaring the problem was obviously running with the hatches open and getting salt water down the conning tower. Garbage. 100% GARBAGE.

It is a diesel electric submarine, not a bloody cruise ship. That equipment is supposed to be MilSpec to withstand years of heavy salt air, temperature extremes, heavy condensation and the occassional dollop of salt water. BAE has already stated that ingress of water could not have caused problems to the electrical equipment unless someone left a panel open.

I never sailed with an Oberon owner that would run shut down on a transit for anything less than a full hurricane.

If salt water from the conning tower ingress caused that fire then it was faulty installation or bad maintenance.

Buckahed
 
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