Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)

[Nfld Sapper]

PS. I am of Mi'k maq decent and will soon be receiving a card in the mail that apparently makes me Indian. I'll be sending it back.

I would keep it, you can get slightly cheaper gas at OFN Fuels in Oromocto  ;D

 

[armychick2009]

To Ballz, Northern Girl and Loachman...

Loachman, thanks for the comment... while you were writing it, I was also writing a similar response. 

Northern Girl, Machine of Death... 1:15... Meet you there and SUFFER IN SILENCE... with one extra rep for the Queen!!

Ballz, all of the candidates absolutely agreed with what you said. Not sure how much more I can emphasize that -- we ALL saw the value such a program has on ALL recruits -- and we made sure to mention it at the course review at the end. We can only hope our words make their way to the top.

And, congrats on sending your card back. I'm Algonquin, Mohawk and M'qMaq, but I will never accept a treaty card. Treaty cards essentially are a symbol (and proof) that you are a ward of the Crown and government property. But as I briefly hinted at in my first post, this isn't to cover that political side of things. I'm perfectly happy and content being a non-status aboriginal.

And... I thought after I wrote my disclaimer in the original post, that the 15% that I pay in taxes? And my income taxes? Hell, I probably paid for myself to go to that program and all of the other candidates with the craploads of tax I've paid over the past 12 years. So, can I just say? That last PRTC program was courtesy of me, on the house!!!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Either you missed it or I imagined it, but it was explained that they were essentially paid to undergo the training, just like anybody else would have been.

Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Loachman!
Maybe I read this wrong. I thought the $1200 was an extra on top of the regular pay.  I know they would get aid to undergo training but isn't the $1200 an extra bonus because they are aboriginal?

They are one of - and the original - founding Peoples of this nation, yet many have been left behind. Not only does this give some of them a boost up, but it also enables them to contribute to Canadian society as a whole as well as their own communities. This is a pittance compared to the unaccounted-for billions that flow through Indian Affairs, and probably does far more good.

Hummmm. I'm not big on heritage. The fact that they were the founding people of this nation doesn't really move me.
I'm more concerned about today and the world I'm leaving for my children. I don't see how $1200 is a life altering boost up but I'm going to reread the original article to see what I glossed over.  I agree 100% that contributing their their own community and Canada is vital.  Agree again about the unaccounted billions in the Indian affairs. I've seen first hand how that money gets used.  Maybe the $1200 should come from Indian affairs.

Perhaps - but then we'd have to come up with some excuse to kick an awful lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders out, and that would cripple us far more than the FRP and Decade of Darkness ever did.

with no Newfoundlanders what would happen to  the RCR?  ;D

I would not argue against attempting to attract more from other communities, but $1200.00 is not so likely to attract those who live in urban communities with numerous other distractions. We have Co-op programmes in many of those, however, and I believe that we pay participants of those.

I'm a white straight male so I'm sure I am biased on some level but I honestly don't see the point behind targeting specific ethnicity, religious backrounds, gender, sexual preference, skin colour. How does that make the Canadian Forces more competitive and badass?
I think we should be targeting physical fitness, academics, skill. 
Though maybe  programs like this gets athletic, skilled, smart persons involved in the Canadian Forces whom would otherwise be hard to reach or from communities that don't commonly field recruits??

It was good for a few chortles, too.

I'm not sure what a Chortles is.

We have paid signing bonuses to people with desireable skills, should those not be extended to every applicant for reasons of fairness?

No.
The reason we give signing bonus's to people with desireable skills is because they have skills which we want which is probably also cheaper int he long run because it means less training, brings a level of professionalism in and competes with the civlian market.
You as a civilian  IT genius, doctor or pilot deserve a signing bonus to join the Canadian Forces.
I as a citizen with a native great grandmother or french grand mother (or scottish or austrian) or being gay or from a certain religion do not.

I think my problem is that I'm seeing this from a technical point of view and not a PAFO PR kinda way.

I do not think that paying people to undergo any level of military training is "throwing it at a problem".

Totally agree.  My issue was because I thought it meant being paid extra.

We should reflect the society from which we come, though, no?

I guess so. It just feels like the CF wants a certain percentage for image reasons.

And ensure that as many as possible have the same opportunities to both contribute and benefit, no?

Again I guess. Haven't really thought about this.  Kinda reminds me though of the thread not too long ago where someone felt the CF should pay for their sex change so that they can join the CF and be given the same oppertunity to serve that everyone else has.

 

[Loachman]

Here's what doesn't add up though, since we're talking about all the disadvantages we are trying to help said aboriginals with.

We're not targeting disadvantaged natives. We're targeting all of them.

I recognize that, as I said:

It is impossible to be equally fair to every single person in this Country, obviously, but I believe that this strikes a reasonable balance.

There are youth living under disadvantages all over that could benefit from something similar, but would probably not be attracted by exactly the same thing.

Lines have to be drawn somewhere.

I do not know of any Muslim or Hindu or Chinese enclaves living in the sticks on the shore of Hudsons Bay.

And I do not see that other ethnic groups have been marginalized as much over a good chunk of their recent history, hence the confidence issues that Armychick2009 mentioned.

We also have to live within our paid ceiling, or have the government increase our size, or divest ourselves of a lot of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders, or some such if we are going to pursue all other communities.

Just because we cannot help/include all does not mean that we should not help/include some.

 

[armychick2009]

Okay, last post for a bit, have to get to the gym

Flawed Design... quickly,  here we go

Yes, loachman made it more clear. It's just regular paid training. We didn't get to the end of the course with paid training and then ANOTHER cheque for a bonus. That's why I think it should be called an Internship, to help alleviate that confusion.

Next, the problem with Indian Affairs paying the $1200. Well, then I wouldn't be allowed to go. Indian affairs only cares for status, treaty natives. I am not a status, treaty native. I'm *just* a non-status, meaning well... how much more clear can I get on that? Indian Affairs doesn't care about us, trust me. So, then the program only is available for those who are status and who may already have access to other programs that the non-status/Metis, etc. do not have access to.

The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education? Damn, why didn't I consider this years ago before I doled out $60 000 in education ($20K I managed to pay as I went)...  (And yes, I know they have to give a minimum amount of years in exchange, but still they get paid a salary while I didn't... sounds like a bonus to me!)

Chortle? It's kind of like a laugh. But... more like smirk with a bit of a chuckle, usually directed towards a more dry, sarcastic type of humour. Yep, that's me!

Have an awesome day!

 

[vonGarvin]

They are one of - and the original - founding Peoples of this nation, yet many have been left behind.

Perhaps they were first to settle here, but their caveman-era way of life and technology was superceded and destroyed by the settling (invading?) Europeans.  I don't count them as founders of this country.  We (the "royal" we, as in Europeans in general, and France and the United Kingdom in particular) founded "Canada" way back when.

And ensure that as many as possible have the same opportunities to both contribute and benefit, no?

Of course the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is equally vague in saying that equal opportunity for all, and some even more:

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Affirmative action programs

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

My question is this: how much native blood is enough to make a person "native?"  Do we need racial purity laws?  Or can I claim that my great great great grandmother mated with a native, and had a half-native son? (my great great grandfather?)

Does "time on the continent" count?  If so, since my family settled here in the 1880s, do I count less?  Do I count more than those who came after?

Or, how about we do away with any special treatment, preferential or otherwise, based on race?


[/rant]

(I apologise.  I just find it illogical to have any program that focuses on "race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.")

The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education?

That program is based on a person's potential.  Be it ROTP or UTPNCM, it's open and available to all.  All you need to do is perform (in school or otherwise). 
As for "free" education, you must serve for a certain time afterwards, albeit paid.  But you cannot break the contract without financial penalty.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Loahman, Armychick2009.  Thank you.
You've given me a lot to think about. I see where I made some misconceptions and mistakes in my argument and I'm glad you've both given me a different point of view I can take a look at.
I still disagree with some things but it's still nice to hear different opinions.

I apologize.  I just find it illogical to have any program that focuses on "race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability

I do too.

It's probably for another thread but I don't agree with the 'we were here first we founded Canada this is our land sense of entitlement' kinda stuff. I'm trying not to let that colour my opinion in this thread. If that were the case why not argue that our Grandfathers fought in WW2 and saved us from ze germans so Canada owes us?  Ya probably another argument.

If this program is bringing in applicants that are turning out to be exceptional soldiers then I think it has merit.

 

[ballz]

nd, congrats on sending your card back. I'm Algonquin, Mohawk and M'qMaq, but I will never accept a treaty card. Treaty cards essentially are a symbol (and proof) that you are a ward of the Crown and government property. But as I briefly hinted at in my first post, this isn't to cover that political side of things. I'm perfectly happy and content being a non-status aboriginal.

I'm sending it back because I don't want or need any breaks off the backs of taxpayers. Too often did I see households in Fort McMurray with one "native" bringing in over 350k-400k a year, and not paying taxes, and their kids getting free post-secondary education etc because somehow, taxpayers owed it to them. What's even worse is, there IS aboriginal people, their "brothers and sisters," that need that money, and rather than paying taxes that they can more than afford to pay, they're actually taking food off the tables of their "brothers and sisters." I'll have no part of that...

If I didn't want to be government property I wouldn't have joined the military...

But back to the discussion at hand:

You seem to be set on telling us how good of soldiers Aboriginals will make. I don't doubt this for a second, and apparently neither does anybody here. I would guess it's for much the same reason that Newfoundlanders traditionally do well at soldiering.

You've also mentioned countless times how much people have benefited from this program. I don't doubt that either, and I doubt anybody here does. OF COURSE they will benefit from the program. The question is, who couldn't benefit from it? And since there is no one that couldn't benefit from this, why should one group be offered it and not the other.

What I question, is the fairness, and obviously, since you're course mates all echoed my statements and questions, you (they) must realize that there IS an issue with the fairness of offering this to Aboriginals and only Aboriginals. THAT is where the whole debate started, and still I see nothing to support that it's fair to offer this to Aboriginals and not the many many other different demographics that you could justify offering this to if you're going to offer it to Aboriginals (or another demographic).

My opinion is simple. If you can't do it fairly, don't do it at all. Either find a new and creative way, or use the money for something else.

Loachmen: "Just because we cannot help/include all does not mean that we should not help/include some."

But it could be offered to all living poverty, and only awarded to the most competitive candidates within those parameters. That's fairER, ensures we get quality candidates, and is not "creating differences."

armychick2009: "Next, the problem with Indian Affairs paying the $1200. Well, then I wouldn't be allowed to go. Indian affairs only cares for status, treaty natives. I am not a status, treaty native. I'm *just* a non-status, meaning well... how much more clear can I get on that? Indian Affairs doesn't care about us, trust me. So, then the program only is available for those who are status and who may already have access to other programs that the non-status/Metis, etc. do not have access to."

This comment is so full of irony its unreal.

So you're upset because this is unfair, but how is this any different than the military offering it to only Aboriginals? I'm sure somewhere there's someone living in poverty saying the same things. "The military only cares about Aboriginals in poverty." What's different between an (Aboriginal in poverty vs anybody living in Poverty) and (Status Indian vs. Non-Status Indian)? None...

armychick2009: The DND does actually sort of have a program that recruits the smart people.  It's called the RMC? Paid salary plus free education? Damn, why didn't I consider this years ago before I doled out $60 000 in education ($20K I managed to pay as I went)...  (And yes, I know they have to give a minimum amount of years in exchange, but still they get paid a salary while I didn't... sounds like a bonus to me!)

ROTP is offered to *EVERYBODY* and is awarded based on how competitive of an applicant you are. It is FAIR and it is EARNED. So in that aspect it's VERY irrelevant from what we're talking about here.

However, whether it's a "bonus" or not is debatable. For me, since I was joining the military anyway, yes, it is a bonus.

For others, not so much:
A lot of my friends say to me that I've got it made because I'm getting paid to go to school and it's all free... Guess what, it ain't free. I usually tell them to "sign your life on the dotted line, and if you're good enough, you'll get the same 'bonus'" and they are quick to stop complaining.

 

[Loachman]

Thanks for the thoughtful Reply Loachman!

My pleasure.

Maybe I read this wrong. I thought the $1200 was an extra on top of the regular pay.  I know they would get aid to undergo training but isn't the $1200 an extra bonus because they are aboriginal?

Apparently not - that was all that they got.

Hummmm. I'm not big on heritage. The fact that they were the founding people of this nation doesn't really move me.

Unfortunately, such things define this country - like the English/French thing as well. One standard for all would be nice (very easy to say when a member of the majority group, that), but this is how Canada developed and we're stuck with it.

I don't see how $1200 is a life altering boost up

Aside from the satisfaction of receiving money for hard work performed as opposed to just another handout, I do not think that it is. The programme itself is the boost, and the $1200.00 is just what they are paid to take the course.

I do not like handouts. They cause and promote dependency. This, however, is pay for work, which causes and promotes pride and independence.

Maybe the $1200 should come from Indian affairs.

Whatever department it comes from, there is still only one community of taxpayers.

with no Newfoundlanders what would happen to  the RCR?

I believe that the term that I used was "crippled".

And if somebody hasn't corrected it to "The RCR" as I type this, then I must.

I'm a white straight male so I'm sure I am biased on some level but I honestly don't see the point behind targeting specific ethnicity, religious backrounds, gender, sexual preference, skin colour. How does that make the Canadian Forces more competitive and badass?

It does not.

The CF should reflect the society from which it comes, and all communities should contribute to and benefit from that society equally. I do not agree with such measures as lowering standards or restricting recruiting to favoured minorities or anything like that, but reaching out to the disadvantaged/marginalized in this way is different.

I think we should be targeting physical fitness, academics, skill. 
Though maybe  programs like this gets athletic, skilled, smart persons involved in the Canadian Forces whom would otherwise be hard to reach or from communities that don't commonly field recruits??

We can train people to acceptable levels of fitness, knowledge, and skill - and we do.

We should, rather, be targetting people with the qualities that we want.

This does that, but within a group that may not otherwise have the opportunities offered.

I'm not sure what a Chortles is.

There are a number of online dictionaries...

It just feels like the CF wants a certain percentage for image reasons.

That's the effect of seeing one-of-everybody in all of the recruiting ads.

As I've said, it's simply an honest attempt to reflect our society at large. I'd like to see us achieve that someday, so long as it's not forced, as I believe that it is right and beneficial on many levels. We are a diverse society, and the CF can be a unifying factor.

Kinda reminds me though of the thread not too long ago where someone felt the CF should pay for their sex change so that they can join the CF and be given the same oppertunity to serve that everyone else has.

That was not quite correct. The question was whether one could join and earn the money to pay for the surgery rather than have the surgery paid for up front (couldn't resist), if I remember accurately.

 

[blacktriangle]

Next time any of you are in Wainwright, check the stalls in the men's room of the main dining hall. It reads something akin to "Bold Eagle: 4 weeks, $4000, getting back at the white man for the last xx years". It's been a year or so but it might still be there if they haven't removed it. I think it was in the stall with other classics such as "2 CER, hard as ****" and "Wainwright, get out while you still can!".

I have seen some great aboriginal soldiers, and some very poor ones. It is the same for every group, including white straight males. One of the best that I ever had the pleasure of meeting sadly died this summer.

When I looked at him, I didn't see a native, I saw a soldier. When I looked at the bad ones, I didn't see natives, I saw bags of ****. Honestly, isn't that the way it is supposed to be?

 

[ballz]

WRT the whole "reflecting the society we live in," I have one opinion and one opinion only.

I read a piece that I can no longer find titled "What is a Canadian?" It started off stating that a terrorist had stated that he would pay civilians for the head of any Canadian, attached to the body or not. The author then asked "well what is a Canadian?"

The jist of it is, Canadians come in all shapes and colours, all backgrounds, all histories, all countries, have all or no parts between their legs, everything or anything.

The only thing that defined a Canadian in his mind, and now my mind, is somebody that believes in peace, equality, freedom, etc. All the values that we hold dear and fight to protect. Nothing else defines a Canadian, doesn't matter if he even lives in Canada. If you believe that, you are more than welcome in Canada, and I'll welcome you with open arms and call you a Canadian.

So, if our military should reflect our society, reflect Canadians, then I believe it only needs to fight for these things, and it's members only need to believe in these things.

"I had as comrades in my [World War I army] section men whose names were: Cameron, Kimora, English, Gleidenstein, de Chapin, O'Shaughnessy. We didn't fall in or fall out as Irish Canadians, French Canadians, Dutch Canadians, Japanese Canadians. We wore the same uniform, with the same maple leaf badge, and we were proud to be known as Canadians, to serve as Canadians and to die, if it had to be, as Canadians."

-Lester B. Pearson

 

[mariomike]

If interested:
"The Canadian Forces Diversity Plan, formally called the Employment Equity Plan, was incorporated in 2006 as recognition of the changes to the Canadian mosaic and to reflect those changes within the CF.":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=5200

 

[armyvern]

WRT the whole "reflecting the society we live in," I have one opinion and one opinion only.

I read a piece that I can no longer find titled "What is a Canadian?" It started off stating that a terrorist had stated that he would pay civilians for the head of any Canadian, attached to the body or not. The author then asked "well what is a Canadian?"

The jist of it is, Canadians come in all shapes and colours, all backgrounds, all histories, all countries, have all or no parts between their legs, everything or anything.

The only thing that defined a Canadian in his mind, and now my mind, is somebody that believes in peace, equality, freedom, etc. All the values that we hold dear and fight to protect. Nothing else defines a Canadian, doesn't matter if he even lives in Canada. If you believe that, you are more than welcome in Canada, and I'll welcome you with open arms and call you a Canadian.

So, if our military should reflect our society, reflect Canadians, then I believe it only needs to fight for these things, and it's members only need to believe in these things.

"I had as comrades in my [World War I army] section men whose names were: Cameron, Kimora, English, Gleidenstein, de Chapin, O'Shaughnessy. We didn't fall in or fall out as Irish Canadians, French Canadians, Dutch Canadians, Japanese Canadians. We wore the same uniform, with the same maple leaf badge, and we were proud to be known as Canadians, to serve as Canadians and to die, if it had to be, as Canadians."

-Lester B. Pearson

I'm just going to point out how deeply offended I was by your mentioning that Canadians either had "all or no parts between their legs". 

I've got all my parts!!  ;D

 

[armychick2009]

Vern! I got all my parts too! *phew*

Ballz, I'll just keep it short (have some other things to do today!)

The paragraph about the Irony? I think you're missing a lot of what I"m trying to say and all of the candidates were... we really, truly honestly believe EVERYONE should have access to that. Why it's only aboriginal right now? *shrugs* I'm not the administrator of it... maybe ask them?

Yes, people abuse the cards. There's abuse in all systems of all types of government and institutions. But I can't fix that either.

"Owned by the government"... am VERY glad you picked up on that. That is one of the other things I wrestled with for the three weeks... here's my take on it. People are getting the cards because they are often misinformed. I'm not. I've done work at the United Nations level with regards to this. I'm pretty solid on the ins and outs of 'ownership', free, prior and informed consent and such. I've also done some work with the International Criminal Court with regards to this type of thing... so, don't think it wasn't on my mind. When I said I was the biggest skeptic at the beginning of this program, I wasn't kidding. I've done my homework, I've lived the life....

BUT... at the end, I have MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE to become property of the government... but not as an aboriginal... but as a soldier.

Some people don't realise that they have the choice. And others are choosing to give up their sovereignty. And others, like myself... have consulted with elders, consulted within' myself and made that decision. Many in the program had the same concerns and this allowed us to work together to figure it out.

And, the wainwright latrine wall saying? Well... everyone has an opinion. My favourite T-Shirt saying that gives me a chuckle (not quite a chortle)... has a picture of aboriginal soldiers from a really old picture and says, "Homeland Security: Fighting Terrorism since 1492".... It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it?

http://www.fightingterrorismsince1492.com/

Thanks to everyone for keeping this a nice civil discussion, muchly appreciated!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In this day of PC-ness, giving a signing bonus based on race is discrimation is it not?  Maybe some non-aboriginal applicants will end up suing the Fed Government, DND and the CF for discrimination.

 

[armyvern]

In this day of PC-ness, giving a signing bonus based on race is discrimation is it not?  Maybe some non-aboriginal applicants will end up suing the Fed Government, DND and the CF for discrimination.

Say again over ... They DID NOT receive a "signing bonus". Rather they were paid to successfully complete a pre-recruitment training course (from the original post in this thread):

Native people who sign up will receive $1,200 for successfully completing the pre-recruitment training course.

Geez, perhaps all of Canada's youth who are "not employed" in Area Cadet Summer Training Camps can now protest the fact that they don't "get paid for work" either by your the gist of your post. Either way, they got paid for successfully completing a pre-recruit training course, NOT for signing up to the CF.

A situation a whole lot different than pers who actually DID receive "signing bonuses" that not everyone else got. Did you protest the pilots who actually DID get signing bonuses for doing exactly ZERO more than any other person who enlisted?

This 1200 bucks came with a caveat - and they actually got "paid" for successfully doing something that pilots, et you & me didn't do; that's a huge difference.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess I wrote that post poorly.  It was meant as a "if they did". 

I am not protesting, for or against it  ;D

 

[Loachman]

"Owned by the government"

You will not be.

You will still be a free citizen, with all of the attendant rights.

 

[ballz]

Vern, I see where you are coming from, but I think Pilots with CPLs getting signing bonuses is a bad example. To say they haven't "successfully done something" is a bit stupid.

You might as well say Doctor's don't deserve some sort of signing bonus because they haven't "successfully completed something." I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I consider Med School some "thing."

Either way, this discussion has moved PAST the $1200, and moved to "why is it being offered ONLY to Aboriginals, regardless of need, and not to other people that can easily demonstrate a need for it."

 

[armyvern]

Vern, I see where you are coming from, but I think Pilots with CPLs getting signing bonuses is a bad example. To say they haven't "successfully done something" is a bit stupid.

You might as well say Doctor's don't deserve some sort of signing bonus because they haven't "successfully completed something." I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I consider Med School some "thing."

Either way, this discussion has moved PAST the $1200, and moved to "why is it being offered ONLY to Aboriginals, regardless of need, and not to other people that can easily demonstrate a need for it."

Ballz, they got paid a bonus to extend their contract. Plain and simple. I sure didn't get paid that to extend my contract.

Why? Because they were in short supply. That justified it, but they didn't do anything special to earn it other than re-sign on the line. Their actual everyday paycheck already accounts for their "actual quals" and pilot specs. Same with docs. Same with any other trade that receives spec pay - that's why they get spec pay. That's got zero to do with receiving a signing bonus simply to re-sign their contract.