Minister Anand announces investment of up to $3.7 billion to supply operational clothing and footwear to the Canadian Armed Forces

[Colin Parkinson]

What I wrote to the MND and others today:



My name is Hamish Seggie. I am a retired soldier with 38 years service. I have served on the Island of Cyprus, Croatia 1993, and Bosnia in 1997. I have also participated with US Forces in Louisiana and California. I retired in 2017 with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer. One of the duties of a CWO is to ensure his or her soldiers are properly trained and their welfare – both physical and mental need are met.

I have to don that rank once more, although I am writing you as a citizen of our nation who has long since retired.

I attended a Change of Command ceremony in Minto Armories in Winnipeg recently. The state of Minto Armories is a facility well beyond its best before date. There are at least two 2.5 metre square holes cut in the floor and now covered with ¾ inch plywood. When I asked why these holes were there I was told there were problems with the pipes under the floor and now there is an asbestos issue.

I don’t think I have to explain to you what long term asbestos exposure can do to the human body. Pulmonary hypertension, Malignant Mesothelioma and Lung cancer are all possible disastrous outcomes if prolonged exposure to asbestos is experienced. This is also a particular concern for the families of those soldiers.



I would ask that the Minister of National Defence, the Critic for National Defence, and indeed the House of Commons find a viable solution to this concern.



Thank you for your service to Canada. It is no less important than the service of our uniformed members.

I would have added that you put the government at legal risk due to a failure to address serious health issues that may lead to long tern health issues and lawsuits.

 

[kev994]

Jim, Minto has been a problem for decades. One part of the problem is 17 Wing CE. Minto is a very low priority for funds and activity from 17 Wing.
Remember when there was no heat in Minto? We held Levee on the pde sq. The Wing Comd arrived and to put his parka on. Heating fixed shortly after.
I had to get the PMed Tech to condemn ALL the washrooms in Minto to get the WCEO to fix /renovate them.

In fairness, RPOps at 17 Wing doesn’t fix anything on the base either.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Depending on standard of accommodation would that be so bad?

Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.

We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).

We invest a lot into training people and pay well enough that it would be a 'penny wise, pound foolish' situation.

Saying this as it was actually a COA for ships doing an out of area refit in Port Weller, where they wanted to put the crew up in a local armoury for a few months. After working long days away from home that would have been a huge disatisfier. Fortunately that was a case where 'quality of life' actually made a real difference, and they got set up in a bare bones but clean motel. We were spending $28M on the project; the accommodations weren't even a rounding error and were already assumed. It wasn't free either, we would have needed some extra reservists around to get in/out anyway, and would have screwed up their training anyway.

Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.

 

[Kirkhill]

Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.

We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).

We invest a lot into training people and pay well enough that it would be a 'penny wise, pound foolish' situation.

Saying this as it was actually a COA for ships doing an out of area refit in Port Weller, where they wanted to put the crew up in a local armoury for a few months. After working long days away from home that would have been a huge disatisfier. Fortunately that was a case where 'quality of life' actually made a real difference, and they got set up in a bare bones but clean motel. We were spending $28M on the project; the accommodations weren't even a rounding error and were already assumed. It wasn't free either, we would have needed some extra reservists around to get in/out anyway, and would have screwed up their training anyway.

Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.

Fair.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.

Speaking of which

First time at sea

After sleeping on cots or on a pile of leaves in the woods while being bitten by mosquitoes all night when in the army, my sleeping accommodations on the ship felt quite luxurious." Lieutenant (Navy) Linda Coleman - p.9

https://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/issues/61/2016-08-15-33.pdf

 

[Kirkhill]

Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.

We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).

We invest a lot into training people and pay well enough that it would be a 'penny wise, pound foolish' situation.

Saying this as it was actually a COA for ships doing an out of area refit in Port Weller, where they wanted to put the crew up in a local armoury for a few months. After working long days away from home that would have been a huge disatisfier. Fortunately that was a case where 'quality of life' actually made a real difference, and they got set up in a bare bones but clean motel. We were spending $28M on the project; the accommodations weren't even a rounding error and were already assumed. It wasn't free either, we would have needed some extra reservists around to get in/out anyway, and would have screwed up their training anyway.

Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.

I was thinking more along the lines of each armory having some shack/hostel type accommodations with a galley and ablutions that could form the core of an emergency overload type situation. Kind of like an Asterix/AOPS DART capability ashore.

 

[Kirkhill]

Speaking of which

First time at sea

After sleeping on cots or on a pile of leaves in the woods while being bitten by mosquitoes all night when in the army, my sleeping accommodations on the ship felt quite luxurious." Lieutenant (Navy) Linda Coleman - p.9

https://www.lookoutnewspaper.com/issues/61/2016-08-15-33.pdf

And first thing learned at sea was how to hook my leg into my rack so I didn't roll out.

Hammocks make so much sense.

 

[OldSolduer]

In fairness, RPOps at 17 Wing doesn’t fix anything on the base either.

They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail.

BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.

 

[daftandbarmy]

They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail.

BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.

Which reflects the priorities of the government of the day, of course

 

[OldSolduer]

Which reflects the priorities of the government of the day, of course

Actually this gaol is a provincial one. I have no idea how the penitentiaries operate with respect to maintenance.

 

[foresterab]

Then expect to be the last peg in the totem pole, if your not paying the bill or are the owner, you are expected to do as your told. Yea you can't have guns in here because it might upset the daycare and by the way we are planning to house the drug addicts in your messes, that won't be a problem will it? (Seriously they tried to do that at our Cadet hall).

I've worked out of hockey rinks where despite having the "keys to the building" we were also told to avoid certain rooms due to chemical hazards. We were also told to save the zamboni if possible but were not allowed to drive it.

I've worked out of Legions where they still operated some meetings while we dealt with operations. Bar was locked however for everyone's comfort.

I've worked out of schools where boot rules had to be zealously enforced so that field wear did not damage all the refurbished floors (logging caulks and gym floors don't belong together) and certain rooms were closed off so that the soot of fires did not damage carpets. We got evicted due to school starting shortly after a week but it provided an initial ICP until such time as a incident specific camp could be set up on the outskirts of town.

So I can easily see working out of an armoury where some rooms (arms locker, comms gear) is off limits. Or some unit staff continue to access specific needs and rooms with pre-determined access worked out prior to entering the space.

What I generally need is a large enough space to set tables/chairs up, a ton of power cords, some washrooms and ideally a coffee pot. Quarters can be a tent on basically any flat surface and food can be arrange multiple ways (resturants/seperate camp set up/ etc.). Comms are done via cell phone and wifi normally, satellite uplink if remote enough.

What is common in all 4 above is that they were larger spaces that were adapted to a shorter term need. All have limitations in terms of use and expansion but allowed for a street address to be provided to allow resources to check in and then be directed to the operational area of need. These were also used as the command post and crew/line arrangements varied at each one and in some cases by week as you adapt to both incident needs and community needs. For the incidents above we're also talking about 200-250 personal total so they are smaller than a major catastrophic event but were still a significant tax on local infrastructure.

I do however believe that this only works if its a short term need. i.e. not converting to a daycare + but a time period measured in days/weeks and is done with the understanding it allows for initial deployment with plans to change once situations stabilize. It can not be the sole location considered without footing a significant part of the bill.

 

[CBH99]

Thank you Jim.

You could have added something like 'times this by about a hundred other armouries and militia training facilities across Canada.'

I wandered through one of local armouries here last week. It looked more like a haunted house.

Can anyone name me one armouries that isn’t haunted as f**k?

(New ones don’t count…)

 

[CBH99]

They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail.

BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.

I used to work in provincial Corrections myself for about a year, and I can concur this is true (in Alberta, anyway.)

The damn locking cell doors & mandatory prison dress is really what makes a provincial jail, a jail.

But if you could bring in your own duffel bag, open the door & prop it open as you wish, and come & go as you please (the way it would be if your a ship’s crew, as per the reference a few posts up)

staying in the jail would actually be a substantial step up compared to every single armoury I’ve ever been in.

 

[Kirkhill]

Then expect to be the last peg in the totem pole, if your not paying the bill or are the owner, you are expected to do as your told. Yea you can't have guns in here because it might upset the daycare and by the way we are planning to house the drug addicts in your messes, that won't be a problem will it? (Seriously they tried to do that at our Cadet hall).

Simple answer.

If you are occupying an emergency space you are not using it correctly.

Day Cares and addicts (and mental care facilities need their own separate permanent homes.

 

[Brad Sallows]

An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not. Much of that can be multipurpose. There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat. The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses. Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).

 

[Kirkhill]

An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not. Much of that can be multipurpose. There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat. The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses. Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).

You're right. I can envisage a one-off multi-month use of a space by a third party to accommodate it while it arranges a longer term/permanent solution.

 

[Kirkhill]

An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not. Much of that can be multipurpose. There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat. The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses. Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).

These days one key element in the design and occupancy of the "armoury" has to be the Comms/Sigs community and all their gear to support permanent lodgers and allowing visitors to plug in.

 

[GR66]

These days one key element in the design and occupancy of the "armoury" has to be the Comms/Sigs community and all their gear to support permanent lodgers and allowing visitors to plug in.

Feeling left out from participating in yet another thread derail...

Or maybe Emergency Preparedness Canada should store modular facilities that can be set up wherever they are required in an emergency (soccer field, farmer's field, empty lot, etc.) and not be bound to where the Armoury is located or to any other existing building which may be damaged/unusable in case of a natural disaster?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Can anyone name me one armouries that isn’t haunted as f**k?

(New ones don’t count…)

Try Wellington House at Stadacona. Not an armouries but creepy as f$$k, especially the lower floors (shudder).

 

[Kirkhill]

Armoury -

a place where weapons and other military equipment are stored:

armoury

1. all the weapons and military equipment that a country owns: 2. a place…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Soldiers gather at the armoury to use the weapons and other military equipment stored there

The first thing an armoury needs is a secure place to store things (ordnance). It needs offices to administer the inventory and activities. It needs communications. It also makes a useful place for the Adjutant-General to keep track of his troops, their condition, their training and their temper.