MND O'Connor is in Aghanistan Again. Way to go supporting our guys

[paracowboy]

Perhaps qualified people that have released from the CF could be lured back to help fill shortages ?

it's being tried, but when a dude with 10 - 20 years of bitterness leaves, it's tough to get him to come back. Those who don't have a sour taste in their mouths stayed, since the CF is so desperate to maintain our fading skillsets, you can stay in Service until 60 years of age now.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

+1 to all Para's said.

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, I guess Jack was right after all and you all may as well pack up and come back in February. 

The general consensus seems to be it has all been tried before and nothing works therefore we might as well give it up.

Pardon me but Bravo Sierra.

Needs must.

The solution may not be the ideal "peace-time soldiering" solution but an acceptable solution must be found.

I find it difficult to believe (just on the basis of the commentary of some of the CFL's on this board) that there aren't promotable Corporals out there. Even if it has just been five years of garrison service.  Likewise I find it equally difficult to accept thatsome of the troops coming back from Afghanistan with less time in have learned more about the practice and theory or soldiering than they would have got in years of courses.

They may not all be up to the  "Never Pass a Fault" standard but mixed with some of the lifers I have to believe they would make a good core to build upon.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

On CBC tv, O' Connor is consider a new mission in Pakistan and wants Pakistan officers stationed in KAF.  No reports on what Pakistan has said.

 

[paracowboy]

Well, I guess Jack was right after all and you all may as well pack up and come back in February. 

The general consensus seems to be it has all been tried before and nothing works therefore we might as well give it up.

yes. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Shake your head.

 

[Kirkhill]

paracowboy:


Write your prescription then.  How would you do it?

And I have no intention of shaking my head the morning after the night before.  ;D

 

[paracowboy]

Write your prescription then.  How would you do it?

there IS no prescription, dude. All we can do is keep soldiering on. We continue to train our troops up as best we can, we continue to try and promote our best, we continue to do the job here and in Theatre. That's it. There's nothing else that can be done.

We're fucked. And we're gonna be fucked for a long time. We have to face that squarely, however, and rah-rah cheerleading is not the solution, nor are ridiculous, pie-in-the-sky dreams about adding tens of thousands of soldiers in a couple of months. Ignoring the problems won't make them go away.

This is going to take a decade, at least, to fix. And if anyone 'outside' dislikes having to look at the reality that we 'inside' are forced to live, well, they can look away while we stand to. And if they dislike hearing us bitch while we work at fixing it, they can walk away. Like they always do.

 

[Kirkhill]

So how do we help you un**** yourselves?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Time.
money to get equipment to help facilitate the training of new people and allow the BN's to keep the small amount of kit they have.

 

[paracowboy]

keep the Liberals and NDP out of Parliament; make the current gov't give us more money and that it be spent on Training and Equipment; tell them to tell NDHQ to shit-can all non-essential tasks; write blisteringly scathing letters to anyone who writes an article that flies in the face of reality as pertaining to the CF; encourage your sons to enlist; put an end to the steady weakening of society in general, and the CF in particular, by demanding the CF go back to acceptable Standards; encourage our industrial leaders to invest in Afghanistan; hold the media accountable for their endless attempts to subvert the mission; encourage various Canadian charities to do more in Afghanistan; demand the Islamic organizations in Canada hold their members accountable for their words and actions; shake a soldier's hand and say "thanks".

Off the top of my head, that's what I got.

 

[Kirkhill]

Time.
money to get equipment to help facilitate the training of new people and allow the BN's to keep the small amount of kit they have.

I definitely get the money for training facilities and also for the kit.

I even get the time bit.  How can that be shortened though? Not necessarily by doing one big thing but by looking at all the things that have to be done and then trying to find time savings of 1%, 5% maybe even 15% in each.  Can you add 5% more people to each course that goes through for example (2 in a course of 40)?  Reopening Regimental Battle Schools?  More OJT?

And paracowboy - agree with all of the suggestions.

Just one point on the Standards - if we accept that Society is not up to the standards that produced the "ancient warrior" but that people have not changed that much what do you think of the Aussie solution? Lowering the entrance standards and then spending more effort ( and I know that means money and time) on bringing people up to acceptable standards before passing them on.

 

[paracowboy]

 Not necessarily by doing one big thing but by looking at all the things that have to be done and then trying to find time savings of 1%, 5% maybe even 15% in each.  Can you add 5% more people to each course that goes through for example (2 in a course of 40)?  Reopening Regimental Battle Schools?  More OJT?

I think we're already looking at those solutions, but therein lies their own problems - by compressing courses, you tend to remove the very things it's meant to inculcate (maybe not the best word, but you'll see where I'm going). For instance, we replaced the effective Machinegunner, Mortars, Small Arms Coaching courses with the PSWQ. 3 courses that lasted 4 - 6 weeks into one. Now, the troops don't develop that instinctive muscle memory. Compression doesn't work that well. We've compressed Battle School to the point that the first time troops see certain weapons is IN THEATRE. Not cool.

We're already maxed-out on student to instructor ratios. After a point, the instructor can't teach everyone, and can't assist those with difficulties, and you get inadequately trained troops.

One thing that I think is working well is that the Army is looking at what it truly NEEDS for warfighting, and dispensing with irrelevant training.

Lowering the entrance standards and then spending more effort ( and I know that means money and time) on bringing people up to acceptable standards before passing them on.

with the steady weakening of our culture, I don't see any other alternative. We need to establish a different mindset from the start of their enlistment - they have to realize that they will be CHALLENGED. And that they have to look at it in that way. Not as insurmountable difficulties to be feared, but CHALLENGES to be cheerfully faced and overcome. That mentality is disappearing. We can't even find Jr NCOs to go on the difficult courses anymore.

Which brings us 180 - we're sending privates on the tough courses, which means they're developing the mindsets, AND the skillsets. They're developing into Leaders. Meanwhile, kids will continue to learn the job the hard way - by deploying. And they will come back with the mindsets, AND the skillsets.

But, it's going to take time. Lots of it. And money. Lots of it.

 

[Kirkhill]

WRT physical standards - how about creating an alliance between local university/college phys ed departments and reserve units?

If a candidate is found to be acceptable in all other respects other than physical conditioning put him on the reserve roles and under the supervision of a Reserve NCO and hire the college types to run them through a 60 to 90 day conditioning routine. The same types of things they do for athletes.  The reserve unit monitors progress. 

If they have the manpower they might even get a chance to start the militarization of the individual - general knowledge and history, rules and regulations, perhaps even your SHARP stuff.  Leave uniform and saluting and weapons training etc until you have a fit candidate.

Success means you get to advance to basic training.  Failure means washing out - or getting another kick at the can in exceptional cases.

By putting the general knowledge stuff and SHARP stuff in at the beginning then you get to stream or weed candidates and at very least you will generate fitter civilians with a better knowledge of what the military is for.

 

[paracowboy]

forget the Reserves. They have too many limitations and are having enough trouble as it is. From what I'm told, they can't even train themselves up to Standard fitness-wise, because of the stupid regulations they have to struggle with.

There is no way to fast-track this. We are fucked, and will be so for years. It is going to take a great deal of time, and herculean effort, to fix it.

The only bright spot is that we are developing (as t-6 pointed out) young leaders with combat experience.
Those troops have to be thrown onto Advanced courses, and not wasted. Since they've gained combat experience, they have to be taught how to teach, so they can pass their knowledge on.

As I've said elsewhere, those troops will rise through the ranks fairly quickly, due to attrition if nothing else, get posted to the Schools, and change will happen quicker. Senior Officers are getting selected by war-fighters for being war-fighters, and will advance quicker as they establish their own Old-Boy Networks, and they can cause change to occur at higher levels. Non-essentials will get weeded out, money will be allocated for things other than parades and parking spots.

The first thing that has to change is the bureaucracy. The empire-building. The mind-set.

This can't be done in a few months, or a few years.

 

[paracowboy]

Bright side:
I think the best thing about the nature of the conflict today is that it's drawing the cream to us. People are enlisting today knowing full well that they're going to face combat. They know that the Army is fucked, and that we're fighting a war. That counts for a lot. They're coming with the right attitude, to an extent.

That, added to the combat experience of our troops, is going to do good things. But, we have to make sure we don't waste it. We have to get these kids on as many basic courses as we can. And we have to get our Jr leaders teaching basic courses and learning on advanced courses. That's where the problems come in. We need the current Sr NCOs to teach the Jr NCOs. We need the Jr NCOs to teach the recruits. And we need both to teach the new troops how to do the job on Exercises.

You tell me how we can get them in two/three places at once. Forget expansion. Screw more BNs. Let's focus on building the units we have first.

 

[Kirkhill]

Then how about forgetting about "sending the kids" on courses and bringing the kids straight into the battalion after basic.  Send them all into the battalions that are 2-4 rotos out from deployment (12 to 24 months from deployment), top up one battalion at a time and give the battalions a useable training budget.

Then you NCOs will get to do your job. ie train your replacement and learn the job of your superior. Chain of Command will get to see all of you, and your officers and new entries at work and be able to make better assessments as to who is suitable for promotion.  Acting temporary positions, responsible assignments.  Don't those give as good an indicator as course grades as to who is suitable and who isn't?

More importantly, IMO, you will know that the people you are fighting with are trained to YOUR standards and satisfaction.

 

[GAP]

Since coming on the boards, I have always wondered about the requirement for physical fitness PRIOR to being accepted. It must be a Canadian thingy, because the Marines didn't do it, they got them into shape or shipped them out. Overall, we only lost about 2 or 3 in 60, so it didn't seem to be all that onerous, but the conditioning segment was well done but brutal.

 

[paracowboy]

Then how about forgetting about "sending the kids" on courses and bringing the kids straight into the battalion after basic.  Send them all into the battalions that are 2-4 rotos out from deployment (12 to 24 months from deployment), top up one battalion at a time and give the battalions a useable training budget.

what are you talking about? They finish their Basic and Battle School, and come to the BNs. They get assigned to BNs based on numbers needed. Then, they get taught how to be soldiers. At the troop level, most courses are taught in the BN by their Sgts and MCpls.

Forget it. It'd take too long.

 

[Kirkhill]

Forget it. It'd take too long.

You are so right.

 

[paracowboy]

I have always wondered about the requirement for physical fitness PRIOR to being accepted.

never got that, either. Maybe to save money? If he can't make the minimum, then why waste rations on him, since he ain't gonna last, anyway?