Modern Cavalry?

[2ndChoiceName]

I'm not 100% sure this goes here, but this concept seemed a little too ridiculous to put in any of the legit forums. I was reading Ryan Flavelle's "The Patrol", and it occurred to me that they were doing a whole lot of walking. Then I got the somewhat ridiculous idea of them acquiring local horses or camels and using them when it was not viable to use LAVs and they were going to be walking. Maybe it is because I am obsessed with the idea of gallantly riding a steed into battle, but it seems to me that there is some potential to employing them like dragoons, ie use them to get from A to B and dismount when they need to fight. I know it sounds ridiculous but I think it is somewhat interesting. I've seen pictures of peacekeepers in Africa riding camels, so I thought why not? I'd like to hear you guys' opinions.

-2ndChoiceName

 

[Noctis]

The locals might rig the camels. Camel-side-bombs... would be terrible on morale.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm not 100% sure this goes here, but this concept seemed a little too ridiculous to put in any of the legit forums. I was reading Ryan Flavelle's "The Patrol", and it occurred to me that they were doing a whole lot of walking. Then I got the somewhat ridiculous idea of them acquiring local horses or camels and using them when it was not viable to use LAVs and they were going to be walking. Maybe it is because I am obsessed with the idea of gallantly riding a steed into battle, but it seems to me that there is some potential to employing them like dragoons, ie use them to get from A to B and dismount when they need to fight. I know it sounds ridiculous but I think it is somewhat interesting. I've seen pictures of peacekeepers in Africa riding camels, so I thought why not? I'd like to hear you guys' opinions.

-2ndChoiceName

It's been done in smaller groups early on in Afghanistan

As for the idea of "gallantly riding a steed into battle", I'll leave that one to others with more expertise than I.

 

[Old Sweat]

Animal transport, either for troops or equipment, is pretty well a lost art. I studied it in quite a bit of detail when I was writing my book on the Canadians in South Africa, which served to show me how little I really knew. Every few years the matter is raised on this forum in good faith and with the best of intentions, by the way. Here are some considerations.

First - animal transport is not really that much faster than troops on foot except for bursts of speed over relatively short distances. They can, however, go places ground vehicles cannot.

Second - animals require a lot maintenance and are rather fragile.

Third - animals do not have that great a payload - roughly 50 to 100 kg max.

Fourth - a lot of the available animal load is taken up carrying their own rations.

Fifth - animals require handlers, which takes troops out of action to look after the critters.

As milnews has posted, US SOF joined with Afghans to ride into battle in 2001. That was a special occasion with participation limited in numbers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Here's some stuff to feed your fantasy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey's_Scouts

http://www.greyscoutsregiment.org/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Greys-Scouts-Military-mounted-tactical-tracking-and-reaction-unit/71731463698

 

[2ndChoiceName]

That Grey's Scout's article is interesting, why do you think it hasn't been implemented in other areas? And yes, milnet, that's what motivated me to post in the first place, if I didn't know that it had been done on a small scale a la US SOF during the invasion of Afghanistan I probably would've dismissed it. And I wasn't talking about using horses/camels in order to cover more ground, but more to save the troops fatigue, and perhaps they could be stabled/cared for by ANA troops or locals looking for work, maybe even stimulating the local economy at the same time. And the way that the author was moving in The Patrol, from COP to COP, they would need to carry a relatively small amount of rations for the actual animals because ideally the COPs themselves would have provisions. I was thinking of their use on less extensive patrols but more of quick one or two day excursions from COP to COP.

 

[Loachman]

Some considerations were given to donkeys in Afghanistan, but I do not recall how far it went.

The OPI called himself the "Assmaster".

There are generally plenty of other ways to skin a mule in these modern times.

 

[2ndChoiceName]

Sorry Loachman, OPI? I'm not good with acronyms.

 

[Loachman]

Officer of Primary Interest - the guy in charge/responsible.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some considerations were given to donkeys in Afghanistan, but I do not recall how far it went.

Crashed & burned - highlights mine

....
Canadian military dumps plans to use donkeys in resupply efforts
September, 2, 2009 - 02:20 pm Graveland, Bill - (THE CANADIAN PRESS) KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - They may be the cream of the crop when it comes to strength, stubbornness and agility, but it turns out that in Afghanistan, the donkey makes a lousy soldier.

A trial project to use the humble beast of burden to help resupply Canadian soldiers out in the field came to an abrupt halt this summer.

The idea was to help ease the load for Canadian troops contending with the often difficult Afghan terrain. There are mountains, irrigation canals, grape fields, mud-walled compounds and wadis - dry riverbeds that carry water during heavy rains.

Roadways can be narrow and the choice of thoroughfares limited, making vehicles carrying Canadian and Afghan soldiers particularly susceptible to deadly improvised explosive devices, the weapon of choice for Taliban insurgents.

However, the practical considerations involved with using donkeys made the idea less effective in practice than it appeared it would be in theory, said Capt. Kirk Watson, whose unit - G-4 Ops, based at Kandahar Airfield - is in charge of logistics.

"We got to a point where we fielded a few donkeys on patrols and unfortunately we lost a couple - one actually drowned and another actually deserted and ran off," Watson explained.

"After that we took a significant amount of time and reviewed the particular project and moved forward without it."

With heat during the summer months surpassing 50 C, it is next to impossible for a soldier in full battle gear to carry enough water and ammunition to survive. The plan was to purchase up to 30 specially trained donkeys and turn them over to a unit of Afghan soldiers and their Canadian mentors.

The hope was the donkey, which can survive with little water and carry more than 350 pounds of gear - nearly 160 kilograms worth - would be able to help.

(....)

Even though the donkey brigade idea initially elicted a few snide remarks and some laughter, Watson called it a shame it didn't work out.

"You always want to have something in your back pocket, but it just happened donkeys weren't as easy to hold in your back pocket as a Chinook or a truck," he chuckled.

"Unfortunately, they were a little more temperamental."

If you click to the thread, there's even some commentary from someone who apparently worked a bit with such beasts in AFG.

 

[2ndChoiceName]

Well. Apparently now I have ingenuity comparable to that of a military think tank! I don't know whether that should make me happy or sad.....

 

[Old Sweat]

In 1973 FJAG and I did an attachment to an Italian Mountain Artillery Regiment that used mules for transport. All the points I made in my first post applied, plus that it takes a lot of mules to move even a pack artillery battery without a lot of ammunition - 150 to 160 animals with all the implications for movement and concealment.

There is a reason the internal combustion engine was embraced by the farming and transportation communities so quickly.

 

[2ndChoiceName]

I was thinking less about using animals to pack gear and more about using them on fighting patrols. I agree with you that now with planes, helicopters and other vehicles pack animals are mostly obsolete.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Bears on fighting patrols might be more effective

 

[MikeL]

I was thinking less about using animals to pack gear and more about using them on fighting patrols.

Why would you want horses/camels on a fighting patrol? What would be the benefit?

Bears on fighting patrols might be more effective

 

[2ndChoiceName]

Why would you want horses/camels on a fighting patrol? What would be the benefit?

To save the troops' energy until they actually have to fight.

 

[MikeL]

To save the troops' energy until they actually have to fight.

How well would these animals handle carrying troops that can weigh 200+ pounds in high temperatures, etc

How well do horses and camels handle being around guns firing,  explosions, etc?  How much space would they take up in a FOB, COP, etc keeping in mind some of these places already have limited space.

How much more logistical/medical requirements would be put on the system for this?

What would be the time required and associated costs for training troops to handle/ride them?  I don't see troops being able to easialy go to ground/dismount a animal in a TIC,  especially if the animal panics.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't see troops being able to gracefully go to ground/dismount a animal in a TIC....

Yes, being graceful in a TIC is a major concern.    ;D

 

[FJAG]

In 1973 FJAG and I did an attachment to an Italian Mountain Artillery Regiment that used mules for transport. All the points I made in my first post applied, plus that it takes a lot of mules to move even a pack artillery battery without a lot of ammunition - 150 to 160 animals with all the implications for movement and concealment.

There is a reason the internal combustion engine was embraced by the farming and transportation communities so quickly.

Just as interesting is the training for that regiment.

At the time it was a draft army and the regiment  It had a cadre of about 50 regulars. Every 16 months they would receive a draft of about a thousand and then send them off to different schools: for lieutenants, sergeants, signallers, arty techs, gunners, drivers and mule drivers. Interestingly enough, the training for the mule drivers was of the longest duration.  :nod:

The mobility was good but slow. There were trails we took up into the Alps where there would have been no other way you could have gotten in. Helicopters would have had some utility but weather and terrain was an issue at times.

Learned a valuable lesson up there too: If you are ever walking up narrow mountain trails with a mule borne arty battery make sure you are at the front of the column. I don't even want to describe what the condition of the trail at the end of the column is covered with.  Found that the bidet in our hotel rooms was quite handy for hosing off the muck on our boots every time we came back from a trip up and down the mountains.    :facepalm:

 

[MikeL]

Yes, being graceful in a TIC is a major concern.    ;D

How can you intimidate the enemy if you don't look cool 



When thinking about what this would look like,  all I can see is guys basically falling off horses landing face first into the dirt,  Platoon Sig knocking himself out as the radio slams into his head, etc