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Agreed next day off should be a given for duty watches. I try my best to get my boys off the next day but it usually gets shot down at the PO level.
More sailors needed for Canada's warships
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JohnnyCanuck1977 said:
My guys get the next day off unless something unexpected comes up, I'm lucky that I don't have to clear it with anyone and no one micro manages me. Some supervisors are so set in their ways that they will keep the guys on board even if there's nothing to do, because "that's the way I was treated". As for saluting females, we do enforce it but its usually in a foregin port only. ST(A) does hit a lot, but to tell you the truth I think they wouldn't be hitting so much if ships passed their exercises, I know that's for my class of ship. As for not getting enough sleep because sea training is going to hit, well that's their fault isn't it? They're going to hit and there's nothing you can do about it, of course you can't force them to sleep. If people ask me whats it like to sail, I tell them its not for everybody and they should join the reg force.
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Well your one of the decent ones then Stoker. 
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And most sailors realize that if there is something going on, then chances are they are not getting out of there is slim to none. but when nothing is going on then for gawds sakes let them go, especially if it helps with morale.
You know you have a good group of guys when they let you know that they are staying when stuff is on the go.
You know you have a good group of guys when they let you know that they are staying when stuff is on the go.
Halifax Tar
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All good and valid points and I mean all of them.
You know i think we can all agree no one here has the golden ticket that will fix our manning issues. Having said that I think that is the main issue I really do.
Were lucky on the Toronto that we sail so much on our own we get most or allot of the pier head jumps but when the times comes that our tempo slows down I know we will start seeing the boys live out of green duffel bags again.
Also the day off after a duty watch should be a given, no matter what trade or rank. We recently had a dept coordinator on board who didn't think our troops should get the a day off for standing a watch on the weekends. This was bitterly fought and the coordinator was defeated, thankfully.
You know with this economic down turn were heading into or are in now we could see an influx of people. Our biggest influxes are usually when the economy is down. So we will have to watch and shoot on that one but here's to hoping.
You know i think we can all agree no one here has the golden ticket that will fix our manning issues. Having said that I think that is the main issue I really do.
Were lucky on the Toronto that we sail so much on our own we get most or allot of the pier head jumps but when the times comes that our tempo slows down I know we will start seeing the boys live out of green duffel bags again.
Also the day off after a duty watch should be a given, no matter what trade or rank. We recently had a dept coordinator on board who didn't think our troops should get the a day off for standing a watch on the weekends. This was bitterly fought and the coordinator was defeated, thankfully.
You know with this economic down turn were heading into or are in now we could see an influx of people. Our biggest influxes are usually when the economy is down. So we will have to watch and shoot on that one but here's to hoping.
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HFXCrow's post was removed because it was needlessly confrontational. Back on topic. Full stop!
Milnet.Ca Staff
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Halifax Tar said:
I hope so too, however to tell you the truth I don't think we will get that "influx of people", I think we will get some but not a lot. The type of young Canadian today doesn't give a rats ass about the military, sadly its the immigrant that seems more patriotic than the rest.
Johnny and Ex-Dragoon have made strong contributions to this topic. I've been in the Canadian Navy for a little over two years, and as an OD, I was surprised by the replies in this topic. Personally my views are similar to the opinions Johnny has posted thus far. With my limited experience I want to elaborate a little though.
To clarify, my mindset is probably different than the "normal" recruit simply because of my experiences and upbringing. Of course I cannot speak for the entire breadth that is the lower ranks. So please take this with a grain of salt.
In basic, I was told to be proud and given a booklet that expounded the pillars of the Canadian military and how it shapes our ethos. Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage. It was a powerful message and something that I had been looking for as a formula for living my life. I try to remind myself of what I was taught when carrying out my duties as a junior member of the Ship's company.
But not everyone sees the same way I do. Not everyone is ready or willing to accept those tenets as advocated by the Canadian Forces. It's not because it is impossible but because a lot of recruits are sometimes still immature in many ways and lack perspective. Some of that perspective can be gleaned through hardship, as Johnny has mentioned. Hardship is required because the non-commissioned core should thrive in such an environment. What could not be obtained with brains or money is accomplished through a sweaty, longer detour. I believe very few ODs, when faced with a menial task, will question themselves, "If I don't do this, who's going to do it?" An understanding of how a junior member fits into the bigger scheme of things may help to reduce bitterness and ultimately the feelings of "I don't want to be here." Forming the proper frame of mind in order to appreciate the importance, however small, of what one is doing can be very difficult for a new recruit.
The ideal would be for all recruits to have the "right" mindset, and be the disciplined sailors, soldiers, and air personnel that Officers would have little trouble leading. Reality, however, has a swift kick.
And while I admit that the Navy may not be as harsh an environment as it was several years ago, or a decade ago, it is still a demanding one. And while our economy may not be the best and the greatest, the standard of living is relatively good for a lot of citizens. A certain type of expectation seems to have arisen as a result; something along the lines of "I deserve better than this." or "Man, I'd rather work two jobs than deal with what I do here.". What good reason is there for a well-educated citizen who, besides for love of the country and its people, would choose the Canadian Forces as its first employer if they saw both sides of the story? (I didn't mean to phrase it as a question, sorry)
Think I've sidetracked. Something else I wanted to note was the prevalence of entertainment and debauchery that exists to entice and corrupt what otherwise would be decent soldiers, sailors, or air personnel. Just think of all the gadgets and devices that have sprouted in the past five years - the amount of electricity consumption per household has probably jumped markedly since the advent of the computer chip. What I'm trying to say is that camaraderie seems to have suffered as a result of this - personal DVD players, laptops, video games, music players, etc. Sailors simply don't interact with one another as often anymore, and the whole "family" framework needs to be re-evaluated. Mess activities do not draw as many participants anymore; personnel would rather do something else with their time. Heck, I'm just as guilty, but the questions is why?
There are a myriad of little details that contribute to the attrition and retention issues that the Navy is facing. But it is my firm belief that above and beyond all that, the values that an individual holds in their heart is the ultimate deciding factor. With a good mindset, one is more readily able to actively identify and assist in rectifying the small things to improve the whole. Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage. It sounds fluffy; there is plenty of loyalty and courage by the looks of it, but there are four pillars for a reason. Perhaps we've grown too comfortable in this day and age. And while I cannot think of one solution alone that can remedy said issues, I worry if all this will be a future trend.
To clarify, my mindset is probably different than the "normal" recruit simply because of my experiences and upbringing. Of course I cannot speak for the entire breadth that is the lower ranks. So please take this with a grain of salt.
In basic, I was told to be proud and given a booklet that expounded the pillars of the Canadian military and how it shapes our ethos. Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage. It was a powerful message and something that I had been looking for as a formula for living my life. I try to remind myself of what I was taught when carrying out my duties as a junior member of the Ship's company.
But not everyone sees the same way I do. Not everyone is ready or willing to accept those tenets as advocated by the Canadian Forces. It's not because it is impossible but because a lot of recruits are sometimes still immature in many ways and lack perspective. Some of that perspective can be gleaned through hardship, as Johnny has mentioned. Hardship is required because the non-commissioned core should thrive in such an environment. What could not be obtained with brains or money is accomplished through a sweaty, longer detour. I believe very few ODs, when faced with a menial task, will question themselves, "If I don't do this, who's going to do it?" An understanding of how a junior member fits into the bigger scheme of things may help to reduce bitterness and ultimately the feelings of "I don't want to be here." Forming the proper frame of mind in order to appreciate the importance, however small, of what one is doing can be very difficult for a new recruit.
The ideal would be for all recruits to have the "right" mindset, and be the disciplined sailors, soldiers, and air personnel that Officers would have little trouble leading. Reality, however, has a swift kick.
And while I admit that the Navy may not be as harsh an environment as it was several years ago, or a decade ago, it is still a demanding one. And while our economy may not be the best and the greatest, the standard of living is relatively good for a lot of citizens. A certain type of expectation seems to have arisen as a result; something along the lines of "I deserve better than this." or "Man, I'd rather work two jobs than deal with what I do here.". What good reason is there for a well-educated citizen who, besides for love of the country and its people, would choose the Canadian Forces as its first employer if they saw both sides of the story? (I didn't mean to phrase it as a question, sorry)
Think I've sidetracked. Something else I wanted to note was the prevalence of entertainment and debauchery that exists to entice and corrupt what otherwise would be decent soldiers, sailors, or air personnel. Just think of all the gadgets and devices that have sprouted in the past five years - the amount of electricity consumption per household has probably jumped markedly since the advent of the computer chip. What I'm trying to say is that camaraderie seems to have suffered as a result of this - personal DVD players, laptops, video games, music players, etc. Sailors simply don't interact with one another as often anymore, and the whole "family" framework needs to be re-evaluated. Mess activities do not draw as many participants anymore; personnel would rather do something else with their time. Heck, I'm just as guilty, but the questions is why?
There are a myriad of little details that contribute to the attrition and retention issues that the Navy is facing. But it is my firm belief that above and beyond all that, the values that an individual holds in their heart is the ultimate deciding factor. With a good mindset, one is more readily able to actively identify and assist in rectifying the small things to improve the whole. Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage. It sounds fluffy; there is plenty of loyalty and courage by the looks of it, but there are four pillars for a reason. Perhaps we've grown too comfortable in this day and age. And while I cannot think of one solution alone that can remedy said issues, I worry if all this will be a future trend.
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Nicely and eloquently put teabag even if you did not agree with me
even if you did not agree with me geo said:
The problem was due of Liberal Party and Conservator Party between 1990-2001, who cuts in CF from 11 billion to 7 billion in 1995-2001...40.000+ soldiers (From regular and Reserve) had the permissions to quit CF because they had no salary. Canada had 130,000 personal in Air,Maritime and Land Forces command or approximately 90.000 regular and 40.000 reserve with a budget of 11 billion (in 1990 that was approximately 20 billion today with inflation). Today Canada have 98.000 or 100.000 personal ( 70.000 Regular, 30.000 reserve ) and a budget of 19.5 billion. Some military specialist claim we most have minimum 130.000 to 150.000 personal and 30 to 50 billion dollar in military budget. Since Mr. Harper and Mr. McKay CF have much more capacity and personal but..not enough in comparison in 1990s when we had 90.000 regular personal and 40.000 reserves (Strong forces for a country like Canada). Today we have a very small and seriously cheap army, because Federal Party always cut in CF and made many mistake such the cancellation of the Joint Support Ships.
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The JSS was an abortion anyways and most of the Navy is glad the project was cancelled so we can actually get a practical AOR and not the monstosity the JSS became.
Seriously cheaparmy??? What are you smoking, you do know they have bought new tanks, new howitxers some new MPVs right?
Seriously cheaparmy??? What are you smoking, you do know they have bought new tanks, new howitxers some new MPVs right?
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Teabag...awesome post!
You very eloquently stated exactly what i was thinking...awesome!
You very eloquently stated exactly what i was thinking...awesome!
Ex-Dragoon said:
Never said the M777 or whatever is cheap but Canada have no plan for future like the speech of Harper "Canada First Defence" its only a speech not a real project without plan and no budget and no planing such the replacement of the Tribal Class or AOR. Sometime i believe CF are not take has a serious investment since 1990s (after the cold war). Canada Federal Government always waiting until the last minute after some crash and serious wounded or casualty for purchases new equipment but sometime they cancel the program such the EH-101 in 1990s or the Joint Support Ship..and now the CH-148 are seriously in danger to be cancelled. This is my point why i said "Cheap" , because Federal made CF cheap with old 40 years equipment..and now need personal but the recruitment take so much time (i still waiting after 6 months)...some country take everyone whatever you don't have your secondary 3 (grade 10) or you're a criminal they don't care (Like US Military). I'm probably sure if Canada accelerated the selection the need of much more personal will be completed in only 6months or 1 years.
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FMR said:
It's true the US has lowered their recruiting standards, last year something like 12 percent required "moral waivers" in order to join. It's not surprising though, since they're in a major unpopular war. As for Canada lowering the recruiting standards, I think we lowered them enough if the kind of recruit we get now is any indication. I know you have been waiting 6 months but there is a process that must be followed and you will get there. Are there any problems that are hanging you up?
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Hello all, my ot is in and hope to get my msg in march. another one leaving the army .
S
sm1lodon
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Does retention increase or decrease on ships that are actually engaged in shooting at enemies, or for the supply ships, actually engaged in resupply due to the warships actively engaged in shooting at enemies?
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