Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I must apologise for not placing a response to my own question so long ago, but, my time is finite and other demands are made upon it.

When Canada, as one of the original signatories to the Allied Mobile Force Agreement in 1961, some major thinking had to occur at NDHQ. The 12 inf bns of the regular army were at that time all motorised (apart from the rifle coys that existed in three battalions as the Defence of Canada Force), and apart from Ferret scout cars in the RCAC none of the support equipment was airportable. The direct supporting batteries of the RCHA were equipped with the C1 105mm howitzer, which by no stretch of the imagination was a light, easily portable weapon.

In order to give the inf bn allocatted to AMF fire support it was decided to have one battery in the airportable support role, this being L Battery. The battery being equipped with the M107 4.2inch mortar, having 12 baseplates. It also still held the normal complement of 8 C1‘s.

The infantry battalion rotated through the role in each of the three Canadian based infantry brigades. This having it‘s 4.2inch mortar platoon lose it‘s weapons, and having the 81mm mortars of each coy support platoon coming under command (giving it 8 81mm mortars) (the 106mm anti-tank guns of the coys went to the bn level anti-tank platoon giving it 12 weapons).

Until the major changes of 1970, the battalions constantly redeveloped their organisation for the AMF role.

1968 saw the purchase of 12 L5 105mm Pack Howitzers from the Italian company OTO, to replace the 4.2inch mortars. These however went straight off to equip the Airborne Field Battery.

The field Battery which was the ACE support battery (have not found out when L Battery reliquished the role) ended up using the stripped down version of the C1.

If any more information could be given would be most grateful.

Yours,
Jock in SYdney

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

When I joined D Bty, 2RCHA in 1978 we were the ACE Mobile Force battery and we still had L-5‘s then. For some unknown reason,[alcohol?], I can‘t remember when we switched to C-1‘s but it was before 1986. I hope this can help in some way. CHEERS

 

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Thanks for that Mr Monkhouse.

When the L5 were bought for the Airborne Battery, it was established for eight guns. Since 12 guns were bought this proportionately links with a training pool and a maintenance pool of weapons - one or two guns in the School, one with the RCEME Centre, one or two in the reserve pool.

With the Airborne Battery reduced to six guns with the CAF formation (as with all batteries), then the AMF battery acquiring six guns, it leaves no training, reserve pool - SO was there additional weapons acquired?

In 1968 there was a British Army training pool of weapons which were held at Gagetown.including L5‘s. Is it possible that such were transferred to CAF stocks???


Yours.
Jock in Sydney

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That I could‘nt say but I know that we had no extra L-5‘s around. When a gun went down you became a 5-gun Bty. On the upside you could actually have a full gun crew for a change. CHEERS

 

[muskrat89]

For what it‘s worth - there was always one (maybe 2?) L5 at the School‘s gun park in Gagetown. Well, that was between 83-96, at the K Lines...

 

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Thanks,

It does not seem logical that there were only 12 L5‘s - equipping two batteries. What about the armourer in training, did they have to go to the batteries to learn about depot level maintenance, whilst the school would have had to have at least one gun for the officer courses to train on?

Yours,
G/.

 

[Gunner109]

HMMM Interesting Jock, But I am fairly sure that only pers posted to 2 Horse actually did the conversion trg. Somewhere between 86-87 F Bty was formed with 4 L5‘s. E Bty (Para) remained with 6 L5‘s. In 1993 The 2nd Regt went Mech with the M 109 A4. F Bty took one D Btys 105mm C1‘s X 6. The L5‘s were put into preservation and were eventually taken out of Canadian service all together. The Regt still has some for Gun Racing but they are and never will be able to fire (Live) ammo due to some gun race mods made.

 

[Gordon Angus Mackinlay]

Thankyou for that.

WIth the two L5 batteries concentrated at Gagetown, this makes sense in regard to school level training.

Also the reduction in the AMF battery to four guns would allow a sensible depot level maintenance, by having two guns in reserve.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney

 

[Ralph]

Sorry for the new flame-like subject title, but nobody answered my original (lame) query:
How has the takeover of the mortars affected artillery so far? Are the recruits learning mortar drill during their MOC course, or are all the tubes sitting in a back room somewhere? Are batteries being tasked with specific mortar capability?
Cheers,
Ralph.

 

[Infanteer]

I will need confirmation from one of the gunners, but last bit of RumorInt I got was that Mortors were being handed back to the battalions. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[SHELLDRAKE]

For the record, the Artillery has never stolen the mortars from the infantry...A mortar is an indirect fire weapon which is essentially what the Artillery is.Currently in the RCHA the mortars are distributed amongst the LG1 howitzer detatchments and a quick conversion course is all thats required to qualify serving gunners.Since the principles of indirect fire is our bread and butter, a five week course on the mortar can be turned into 3 days of familliarization.

 

[Gunnar]

Yeah, he knew that. He just didn‘t get any replies to his first message, so he wrote something guaranteed to stir up a response.

Nothing against your abilities to handle a mortar...just that it was the only piece of "heavy artillery" actually in the trenches with the boys on the sharp end. Makes for instantaneous support, and more control over targeting when HQ has other priorities for the Arty...

 

[harpoon02]

Ref: RCHA sealing the Mortars. We are training with them on a regular basis and have developed methods and drills that are in line with the way we use Arty. As to the question of Command and Control they remain under the I9ers. This means that we have had to meet the Inf BTS up to Platoon level.

 

[Crazy_Eyes]

Hey all, just wondering if you could answer a quick question for me, whats the maximum effective range of mortars? and does it change depending on the size of the shell?

   

 

[Michael OLeary]

The range for a particular mortar will depend on which mortar bombs are being fired.

60 mm mortars will fire in the 200-1200 metre range band in the handheld role (if the system is restricted to only the lower charges in this role) and may reach to 2000+ metres when tripod mounted.

81 mm mortars usually cover the 200 - 5000+ range band, though there are some longer ranging barrel/ammo systems in the world.

120 mm mortars generally fire to 7000-8000 m. There are some systems with rocket assisted ammo that can reach to 13000 m, though the type of ammo and payload is limited as a result.

 

[childs56]

i think this is just a general mortors question , not of Canada's in particular, here goes 81mm out to 8000m, 120mm top loaded up 11000m, 120mm breach loaded up 16000m. these are the maximuim ranges and they may be even more now with new ammo. just because its max range is 16000m does not mean you will use it  at that range, as it is less predictable as to where it will land. remember mortors and artillery are total guess work where they will land, although the guess work is very percise it still has error in it. the further it travels the less stable it will be  and thus the more errors you will have. not that their are many errors. hope that helped a bit you can get all that info from the library if you like to read about it

 

[muskrat89]

CTD - I'm not sure of the amount of actual experience you've had, but I wouldn't classify artillery fire as "total guess work". I cannot speak for mortars, as I have never fired one. The biggest uncertainty usually lies with the first round - laser corrections can usually make 2nd round a target round. A good FOO party, without a laser, can often have a target round within 2-4 rounds of adjustment. The only "guess" involved (and it's an extremely educated guess) is the initial data the FOO issues for the Fire Mission. Grid reference, etc. Things like survey level (including CPFC data), met data, etc. all positively affect fall of shot on FFE.

Granted, artillery is an "area" weapon, meant to deny the use of ground - maybe that's what you meant by guesswork. I'm sure Bruce, Gunner, and some of the others can elaborate...



Speaking of which - I did my Arty Tech course with an HP41C - I guess I'm old, huh?

 

[devil39]

Speaking of which - I did my Arty Tech course with an HP41C - I guess I'm old, huh?

I did Adv mor with the HP41C.   Hated it.   Most of us were believers in the plotter board.  

Eternal damnation (this site will not allow me to say H.e.l.l ) could very well consist of a CP in Gagetown, with a 41C, with no ammo data in the machine, and calculating endless fireplans.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I'm not sure I like the term "guesswork" either, but maybe what he means is you don;t get a line of sight on target. Well thats just another part of our superiority, as that we don't require it.
I also did my basic on the 41-c but "progressed" to the 41-c eprom for the advanced course.
As for basic plotting, except for the time,[well for SOME people 8)] it still works just fine.
I remember being in Suffield, doing the double check on a civilian company's test round[ Belcan, I believe]. Well they payed big money to fly a bunch of eggheads and their computer from Switzerland to compute all this data, but, if little Brucey and his plotter/firing table didn't come up with the relatively same data they went back to the drawing board.
PS. Just occurred to me, we need a "smiley" for the Artillery

 

[Art Johnson]

It has been a long time since I did any mortar work in fact I was directing a section of mortars when I was wounded. If I recall correctly there was a Beaten Zone that measured X yds wide by X yds deep and that 50% of the bombs fired would land within 25% of  the area of the Beaten Zone. Does that sound right or have I been away too long?