Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more

[The Bread Guy]

For you 60mm fans, here's what the Brits are up to:

The majority of the M6-640 Commando handheld and M6-895 bipod-type 60 mm mortars acquired in quantity from Hirtenberger by the British Army to meet urgent operational requirements (UORs) in Afghanistan since 2008 are to be shelved for economy reasons.

According to Major Haydn Jellard, a staff officer from the Dismounted Close Combat section of the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) Capability Directorate Combat who spoke at the Defence IQ Future Mortar Systems conference in London in October, once the drawdown from Afghanistan is complete, the Anglo-Canadian 81 mm L16A2 mortar will again be the only type on issue to standard infantry battalions in Reaction Force and Adaptive Force brigades. Their infantry sections will also have the use of 40 mm grenade launchers for organic fire support at the shortest ranges.

Though heavier than its 60 mm counterpart, the long-serving L16A2 bipod mortar can be man-ported if necessary, has a greater range (5,650 m), and its bombs have more than twice the lethal radius. Concentrating on a single calibre will also yield economies of scale in the acquisition of smoke, illuminating, and high-explosive mortar ammunition.

It is expected a vestigial 60 mm mortar capability will nonetheless be "kept alive" within light forces, notably by UK Royal Marines (part of the navy) and parachute battalions, which will continue to employ a limited number of the 1,384 m-range Commando mortars. The remainder (including all the 3,610 m-range M6-895 bipod versions) will be "going into store", Maj Jellard stated ....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting add-on by the USMC to their 60mm to improve accuracy, looks like a typical Holo-sight. Via Tanknet

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/11/07/marines-in-afghanistan-getting-mortar-improvements.html?ESRC=eb.nl

 

[KevinB]

Insight MRDS -- I'm curious if it has a reticle like the EOTECH 40mm GL sight -- with range stadia etc.

 

[Kirkhill]

60mm gossip - UK version

For all of 2013, the 60mm Light Mortar continued to be part of the training for the infantry battalions, but the weapon is expected to have to go after operations in Afghanistan conclude. The mortar was procured as UOR to reintroduce a capability that had been available for ages in the Platoons, thanks to the 51mm mortar. It was phased out believing that the introduction of under slung grenade launchers would provide a proper replacement, but the experience on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan proved it wasn't quite the case.
Last year, the Army said that the Platoon Mortar would eventually leave the army again, with the weapons mothballed. Only the PARA and Commando units would retain a number of them in use, to preserve their capability and to keep alive expertise of their employment.
This is another example of cut corner. It is to be hoped that the decision will be reversed, like it has happened in other cases.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting add-on by the USMC to their 60mm to improve accuracy, looks like a typical Holo-sight. Via Tanknet

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/11/07/marines-in-afghanistan-getting-mortar-improvements.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Very slick - some closer pix from Flickr attached.

 

[MilEME09]

looks like you use the sighting system which looks like a holo sight on top of a laser range finder to get a rough angle of attack if you can visually see the target area that is.

 

[GnyHwy]

You can also dial a range in if you are forced to estimate or pick it from a map.  I have heard anecdotal evidence that they are quite accurate, assuming you have the correct range. 

 

[Kirkhill]

And it's back......

Army Wants 120mm Mortar Systems That Can Fire Out to 12 Miles

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/09/12/army-wants-120mm-mortar-systems-can-fire-out-12-miles.html

Needless to say, not our Army.

The U.S. Army wants to replace its current mounted and towed 120mm mortars with new systems that will shoot farther and offer protection for mounted crews.

Army officials from Product Manager Precision Fires and Mortars and Project Manager Combat Ammunition Systems began market surveys in August to find defense firms capable of producing a 120mm Mortar Future Indirect Fire Turret by 2021 and a 120mm Extended Range Mortar system by 2026, according to two Aug. 2 solicitations.

The new 120mm Mortar Future Indirect Fire Turret, or FIFT, "is a 120mm turret that provides protection from enemy counter battery systems and insulates soldiers from the effects of both noise and blast overpressure," the FIFT solicitation states. "This turret shall be capable of firing heavier projectiles at a greater range than the current Battalion Mortar System (BMS) or Recoil Mortar System-Light (RMS-L)."

As an objective requirement, the Army wants the new turret system to shoot out to 20,000 meters, or 12.4 miles, according to the FIFT solicitation.....

The Army also wants the FIFT to have more automation so the "physical burden on crew is reduced, while supporting a high rate-of-fire capability," according to the solicitation. In loading and firing, the Army wants a system where "ammo transitions from stowage through the firing event without human contact."

At a minimum, the system should have a maximum rate of fire, or MROF, of 16 rounds per minute for one minute followed by a sustained rate of fire, or SROF, of 6 rounds per minute "indefinitely," the solicitation states. Ideally, the Army wants a system capable of "being fired at the MROF of 24 rounds per minute for 2 minutes and maintain a SROF of 12 rounds per minute indefinitely."

The FIFT may be manned or unmanned and designed to be compatible with the Stryker, Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle, and Next-Generation Combat Vehicle.

Which seems to bring us back to

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2014/armaments/Wed16495_Tainen.pdf



Even more curious - and something that might be more of interest to Canada is the prospect of a 20 km x 81 mm mortar.

Both the Army and the Marine Corps have expressed interest in mortar systems that shoot farther. Earlier this year, the Corps began searching for a company capable of producing the Advanced Capability Extended Range Mortar, or ACERM -- a mortar round compatible with existing Marine and Army M252 81mm mortar systems that offers an effective range of up to 20,000 meters as well.

Personally I think that any turreted mortar system should be assigned to the Arty, especially if it is going to be lobbing bombs 20 km down range and likely to be manoeuvering behind the forward echelons.

What do the pros think about the other system though?  20 km 81s?  It sounds kind of long and light to me.

 

[tomahawk6]

The US Arm The Army is alway assigns mortars to the infantry. the primary mortar at the battalion level is the 120mm and the 81mm mortar at company level. Extending the range of mortars is good but we cant rely on artillery. I would prefer a 105mm solution but I also like the Russian solution of 160mm and 240mm mortars that are wheeled so they can be towed or airlifted.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A 20k 81mm is basically a long range 25pdr, although very affected by windage I suspect. Velocity at the beginning of the arc will be fast, unless it's rocket assisted, which likely means a 60mm like HE load.

 

[Kirkhill]

The US Arm The Army is alway assigns mortars to the infantry. the primary mortar at the battalion level is the 120mm and the 81mm mortar at company level. Extending the range of mortars is good but we cant rely on artillery. I would prefer a 105mm solution but I also like the Russian solution of 160mm and 240mm mortars that are wheeled so they can be towed or airlifted.

Yes T6, but you also give your infantry 105mm cannons to play with.  Our army tends to feel that those sorts of things should be left in the hands of the professionals with scarred scalps.

 

[tomahawk6]

The artillery operate the towed 105's /M119. They are part of support FA battalions and have been used in Afghanistan. I would like to see more HIMARS/MRLS fire units. 


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18550/us-army-eyes-replacing-its-105mm-and-155mm-towed-howitzers-with-one-new-cannon

 

[Kirkhill]

The artillery operate the towed 105's /M119. They are part of support FA battalions and have been used in Afghanistan. I would like to see more HIMARS/MRLS fire units. 


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18550/us-army-eyes-replacing-its-105mm-and-155mm-towed-howitzers-with-one-new-cannon

Understood T6. 

Actually I was thinking about these 105s

And Colin

Are you suggesting the reintroduction of the  25pdr QF as an alternative to either the 81 or the 120?

 

[tomahawk6]

I think the 25 pounder QF would fit the bill.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think the 25 pounder QF would fit the bill.

Combat proven, adaptive to high, medium angle and direct fire modes, 306 degrees traverse on a deployable gravity assisted self contained stability platform, which improves accuracy and reduce gun movement from recoil forces. Hardened against EW attacks, offers protection to personal from shrapnel and 7.62x47. Comes complete with it's own articulated ammunition support system and has low maintenance hydraulic braking systems. The gun system can be married with visual and optical aiming system and can be fitted with electrical systems for night warfare. Can be moved by a dedicated tractor or any expedient vehicle over 1/4ton. Fires a multiude of different types of semi-fixed rounds which can be sourced from around the world and is capable of defeating BMP's from all angles and a T-55 from the side with AP ammunition fired with supercharge (muzzlebrake option fitted) System has been deployed world over in Arctic, desert, temperate and mountainous terrain. Vehicle mount options are also available.   

 

[MilEME09]

Don't forget cheap to manufacture, all the manuals exist, i believe there was a Pack arty version for airbourne

 

[Infanteer]

Let's go with the Enfields while we're at it!

 

[Kirkhill]

Let's go with the Enfields while we're at it!

Now you're getting it!  At least with the Enfield you can attach a proper sword....  ;D

Just the thing for charging the Turks....

But back to the AMOS - AMOS on LAV - infantry, armour or artillery?

 

[FJAG]

There's a fundamental difference between a battalion's indirect fire support weapon and artillery in general. The battalion has a limited area of influence dictated by it's organic target acquisition and fire control capability. Artillery on the other hand is designed to reach out beyond the battalions and across a broader front. It's target acquisition and fire control systems are designed to allow that. There's a bit of apples and oranges to the issue.

There's nothing wrong with longer range mortars. If nothing else then they can be positioned further back from the front lines into more secure areas. In worse case scenarios, such as Afghanistan, where a battalion might have a vast AO to cover, it provides more dedicated organic support further out.

IMHO, mortars regardless of calibre, like guns should be self propelled and armoured for no other reason than our near peer adversaries have really good counter mortar/gun capabilities and we all seem to have forgotten just how quickly counter mortar/gun, rockets with sub munitions get to you after your first shot. Again IMHO, any army planning to use towed guns or dismounted mortars--especially when transported by thin skinned vehicles--in a near peer environment is flirting with professional negligence. (I find it quite interesting that a mortar squad in a US Stryker bn has both a vehicle mounted 120 mm mortar and an 81 mm mortar for dismounted operations--somewhat reminiscent of the old airborne battery which could deploy 6 x 105 mm L5 pack howitzers or 12 x 81mm mortars or a combination of the two)

Yes. We need a HIMARS/MLRS capability.

:cheers:

 

[Infanteer]

What he said.

Inf Mortars - Support a Bn

Arty Mortars - Support a Bde

Who you give them to should be dependent on what effect you want to achieve.