Mountain Warfare Gear

[daftandbarmy]

Although I'm a big fan of our winter/arctic gear for operations in the high arctic, as anyone who has ever suffered inside a 10 man tent in a February West Coast downpour knows, our stuff has some definite limitations in mountainous/ alpine terrain, or climatic zones with more extreme temperature variations. I once recall watching the poor old RCR wallowing up Norwegian mountains in deep snow pulling big toboggans on snowshoes while we zoomed around on skis.

Many countries (Norway, Britain, US etc) provide lightweight waterproof 2/4 man tents, alpine touring skis, smaller and lighter pulks or toboggans, MSR type stoves, plastic boots, Gore-tex everything and other similar lightweight gear to their troops to support these kinds of operations. 

Does anyone know if we are likely to develop and deploy similar gear? It would seem to make sense to get ready for these type of operation given that the upcoming winter Olympics in in Whistler.

 

[BernDawg]

I really wanted to post something dry and cutting but couldn't bring myself to do it.  Based on my past experience it won't happen.  It's not the first time we have had to deploy in the mtns in support of domestic ops and it won't be the last.  Sometimes, in the past, they have locally purchased limited amounts of gear for the MOI (mountain ops instructor) types but that is all.  It seems that 11mm nylon rope and combat boots are adequate for the troops  :  Do we need it? I think so.  Will we get it?  Not a chance. (not as general issue anyway)

Cheers
Bern

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yeah, call me a cock-eyed optimist...

To me, it seems like we're almost there.  'Tease the Soldier' has given us some good thermal underwear and fleece stuff, and the Gore-tex stuff (if we ever see it) is perfect for the job. The assault vest/ patrol pack/ rucksack seem just fine. The parka would even work OK, although it is huge. Just ski with the shell on and put on the liner when you've stopped, as per SOP.

All we need is a good ski and boot system (backed by the training needed to make it work), a sound 2/3/4 man tent and an MSR-type stove (although the Peak 1 is fine too). We'd also need to modify the existing toboggan for ski operations, or get one made especially for ski mountaineering. Failing that, make the tent and stove small and light enough to fit in the pack.

 

[devil39]

My favourite winter sleeping accommodations in the mountains was a para-teepee.  Not quite as warm as a 10 man tent, but it sure beats a ground sheet hootchie.

For those times you couldn't get the toboggan up the mountainside, I had every section carry two parachutes and two mountain stoves.  When separated from the toboggans you could make a fine 10 man tent with two parachutes, one on top of the other leaving an airspace in between the two.  Light and easy to carry in the rucks.

The parachutes came in handy for setting up OP's too.

Mind you that was 15 years ago.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Excellent idea. With the sleeping bags we have you're good to go down to minus 30 provided you dig down into a drfit and cover yourselves over.

 

[Bomber]

There is plans in the Triple S project to deal with all of these problems.  (see ISS thread above)

Once the new snowshoes are sorted, life in the hills should be a bit better.  The list for SSS is quite extensive, and should cover everything you have isted off.  The only thing I would add is more training for everyone, and a decent Soft Shell material jacket.  Goretex is great for what it was designed for, but once winter hits, unless you are sitting in snow, the moisture you need to gaurd against is perspiration.  If the goretex layer is -20, there is a good chance the water vapour will crystalize and ice up before it gets transfered out, a SoftShell stops external water, blocks 80 percent of the wind Vs Goretex's 96-98 percent, but allows tons of breathability, enough to let the moisture out before it would freeze.  Perfect for high activity levels.  I would love to see a shoft shell for year round use, as in my opinion, you only need Goretex at most 5 percent of the time.  Stealth suits are great for a down pour, but I would much rather dump the same amount of cash into something I can wear almost all the time.  And they are silent, non of that stiff crinkly sound.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Thanks Bomber, Good info.

I've been out of the loop recently, any idea if properly trained and equipped ski troops are on the cards? (apart from the mukluk and bangy board concept, which is a struggle on steeper slopes). I find it odd that the alpine club members I do trips with occasionally are better equipped to travel our mountainous backcountry in a rapid, 'self-propelled' manner than we are.

 

[KevinB]

When down at the USMC Mountain Warfare Center - we used their ski/march boots and telemark ski's for a portion of us - the rest of the unit used bangy board and mukluk's.

Their 2man tobogans and NorthFace tents where WAY more appropriate for the moutains than the CF gear.

However the CF stuff is good for higher arctic work.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yup, got to agree with you there.

The USMC people from Pickle Meadows followed us around in Norway in the early 80s and remodelled alot of their kit based on their reports. They were previously using exclusively high arctic type stuff similar to the CF. We created a GPMG SF pulk, with a pintle mount built into the middle, that they liked alot. Not sure if they developed their own or not. They were keen on the smaller pulks too and were glad to get rid of their enormous 'akios'.

Oddly, they were enamoured with the 'tent sheet' concept, a rhomboid shaped canvas individual shelter that buttoned together to create a section shelter. We adopted it from the Norwegians. Although effective, it was a nightmare to lug around - we never unbuttoned them as it was far too onerous to put them back together at 20 below. We pleaded with them to avoid adopting them but they went and bought them anyways. Glad to hear they're using the tents now. We developed our own 4 man tunnel tent for each 1/2 section through our trials network. These were great. They could be joined together to create shelters for larger groups, HQ setups and FA stations etc.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

When down at the USMC Mountain Warfare Center - we used their ski/march boots and telemark ski's for a portion of us - the rest of the unit used bangy board and mukluk's.

Their 2man tobogans and NorthFace tents where WAY more appropriate for the moutains than the CF gear.

However the CF stuff is good for higher arctic work.

I agree about the 2 man toboggans, but the North Face tents are f*cking useless.  We spent 3 weeks in Norway with those things in 2005 and ripped about half the floors off of them when striking camp in the morning, as they'd frozen solid to the ground.  I much prefer a floorless tent for cold weather operations.  Something like a Kifaru Para-Tipi would be ideal.

 

[KevinB]

Matt -- they rock in the Sierra's though  8)

 

[daftandbarmy]

What kind of North Face tents were they? Did they use leather ski/march boots or plastic? Got me interested now...

I agree with 'bottomless' tents in deep snow. The 4 man tents we had had no floors. Thin walls though, so that made it hard to keep light discipline. Had to dig them down wherever possible and cover with brushwood.

 

[KevinB]

Leather -- the Army SF has plastic ones -- but having used both I find the Leather to be a much superior boot (old habits) for climbing, marching and skiing.

 

[Craig B]

I have a personal MSR Whisperlite Internationale and I would not want to hand it over to the boys in my troop. Its too fragile and temperamental for bulk issue.

I just received ,through the supply system, Coleman Exponent 1 burner stoves ( Naphtha, unleaded gas or kerosene fuels). They work pretty good but the plastic folding feet are somewhat fragile. Now I need to get some cases for them.

Craig

 

[KevinB]

We had Whisperlites issued.

 

[GO!!!]

Yeah, call me a ****-eyed optimist...

To me, it seems like we're almost there.  'Tease the Soldier' has given us some good thermal underwear and fleece stuff, and the Gore-tex stuff (if we ever see it) is perfect for the job. The assault vest/ patrol pack/ rucksack seem just fine. The parka would even work OK, although it is huge. Just ski with the shell on and put on the liner when you've stopped, as per SOP.

GAAAAHHHH!

The TV and patrol pack have numerous well documented deficiencies, they are universally reviled and infanteers regularly spend hundreds of dollars to replace both of them.

The rucksack is not yet in general issue, my unit got early versions of it, and it is typically Canadian. Designed to be worn without any sort of body armour or load bearing equipment, needlessly complicated, heavy and enormous. Unfortunately, I'll have to replace that too.

Gore tex is not for cold weather, it is for wet weather, and when it is cold and wet, it is not really useful at all. We would have done well to look to the brits for this, they have excellent soldier kit.

 

[devil39]

Whisperlite Internationale is pretty simple from my point of view.

I've had mine since '97 (bought it) and it is the feline's anus as far as I am concerned.  I've hauled it everywhere in an outside pouch of a '64 pattern ruck, jumped it, abused it, fed it garbage fuel.. and it still runs fine.  Give it a tiny bit of maintainance.  Never leave home without it.

Again I'm dating myself, however it was as good as things got in those days and it still serves me fine.... I must go see if there is something better... I will give the old one to my wife

 

[GO!!!]

Again I'm dating myself, however it was as good as things got in those days and it still serves me fine.... I must go see if there is something better... I will give the old one to my wife

The MSR Pocket Rocket is the new standard in field cooking. The case is the size of a salt shaker, the fuel is as big as a hamburger. It will boil a 3/4 full canteen cup in 1:15 or so, and can be packed 30 seconds later.

45$, and 3-5$ per two week exercise for fuel.

 

[devil39]

The MSR Pocket Rocket is the new standard in field cooking. The case is the size of a salt shaker, the fuel is as big as a hamburger. It will boil a 3/4 full canteen cup in 1:15 or so, and can be packed 30 seconds later.

45$, and 3-5$ per two week exercise for fuel.

I will check it out... is it Naptha and multi fuel? External tank?  I like that about the whisperlite, different sized tank for different rigs.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I spent most of the 80s with one of the ancient gas guzzling mountain stoves in my ruck.  An adventure in every use: never knew if it would light and run like a dream, or high order and take out half the section.... ;D