MP Response to fire - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.

[RCDtpr]

This is a mistake on your part.  An Officer has a commission and that means something.  So yes, you should take an Officers word at higher face value than a homeless person. 

That being said, if said officer is found to be lying, acting unethically, etc.... Then the full brunt of the law should be brought down on them.

Having worked with LCol Wellwood, I can't imagine what would set off such a mild mannered woman?

So let's break down your statement here.

I respond to a domestic disturbance, husband holds a commission wife is an NCM.  Wife says x happened, husband says y happened....because he holds a commission; immediately I'm to take his word as absolute and tell the wife she must be lying due to a lack of that piece of paper?

Or let's try this......I respond to a disturbance at a bar.  Staff say one of either 2Lt bloggins or civilian joe blow broke something.....bloggins says joe blow did it and joe blow says bloggins did it.....I should, according to you, immediately place joe blow under arrest because he doesn't hold a commission scroll?

Frankly your statement is one of the dumbest and most arrogant things I've ever heard in my life, and if that's your true attitude, frankly I feel bad for you lessers...I mean subordinates.

Loachman....I am in no way disagreeing that the MP appeared to have acted like an idiot and have not once defended his personal actions.  What I have defended is that he did, whether anyone wants to accept it or not, act within the parameters of the law.

Frankly, I don't know why he would act the way he did.  I have found in my time on the job that it takes an equal amount of effort to be polite to someone as it does to be rude and I have found the former to be infinitely more effective.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Every corporation needs management.......

And that'll make me ethically superior then I am now???  Arrogance abounds...

Has nothing to do with ethical superiority.  In the context of the military, the word of an officer who holds a commission does mean something.

The same way a police officer's word means something because of THE BADGE HE HOLDS.

Doesn't necessarily mean they are gods but given their position, they should carry themselves a certain way and should be given the benefit of the doubt.  Not all Military Officers are good people, heck NOT ALL CORRECTIONS OFFICERS are good people.  There, put that in your pipe and smoke it  :-*

As for the case, I've already stated that both parties made mistakes.  Major Wellwood owned up to her mistakes and was punished for it. 

There is a lot more to this story then what you can take out of a record of decisions from a Court Martial.  I know a certain Detachment Commander (Captain) had a 1 on 1 conversation with 1 Star General over this incident, at the position of attention with beret on.  Heads rolled on both sides of the fence. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Doesn't necessarily mean they are gods but given their position, they should carry themselves a certain way and should be given the benefit of the doubt.  Not all Military Officers are good people, heck NOT ALL CORRECTIONS OFFICERS are good people.  There, put that in your pipe and smoke it  :-*

Way too many CO's aren't good people actually..........it's one of the many hazards of this job.
Spending every working minute with non-ethical scumbags makes it way too easy to desensitize to the real world.

"Meh, not a bad guy, he only does break and enters." 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So let's break down your statement here.

I respond to a domestic disturbance, husband holds a commission wife is an NCM.  Wife says x happened, husband says y happened....because he holds a commission; immediately I'm to take his word as absolute and tell the wife she must be lying due to a lack of that piece of paper?

Or let's try this......I respond to a disturbance at a bar.  Staff say one of either 2Lt bloggins or civilian joe blow broke something.....bloggins says joe blow did it and joe blow says bloggins did it.....I should, according to you, immediately place joe blow under arrest because he doesn't hold a commission scroll?

Frankly your statement is one of the dumbest and most arrogant things I've ever heard in my life, and if that's your true attitude, frankly I feel bad for you lessers...I mean subordinates.

Loachman....I am in no way disagreeing that the MP appeared to have acted like an idiot and have not once defended his personal actions.  What I have defended is that he did, whether anyone wants to accept it'll not, act within the parameters of the law.

Frankly, I don't know why he would act the way he did.  I have found in my time on the job that it takes an equal amount of effort to be polite to someone as it does to be rude and I have found the former to be infinitely more effective.

Substitute Officer for Policeman and tell me what you would do?

I feel you're taking things out of context.  In the context of the military, an officer should be given a certain degree of latitude and his word does mean something. 

 

[RCDtpr]

Substitute Officer for Policeman and tell me what you would do?

I feel you're taking things out of context.  In the context of the military, an officer should be given a certain degree of latitude and his word does mean something.

I'll tell you what I've done when I've responded to other police officers involved in various things.....it's called my job, which is to investigate......but thank you for questioning my integrity. 

Ok let's change it up a bit then...an MP responds to a pmq...one spouse officer, the other NCM.  Now we are talking about two service members on a base....officers word is taken by virtue of his commission?

This MP attempted to do his job and investigate and she felt, by virtue of her rank, that she was going to tell him he couldn't.....seems she was wrong.

He was wrong in the sense that it appears he acted like a complete glue bag.....but...still within the parameters of the law

 

[Loachman]

but thank you for questioning my integrity.

As you are doing with ours.

You're welcome.

A domestic disturbance is something completely different, and immediate action may well be required.

The MPs shot and wounded an Arty Officer in Petawawa at the beginning of the eighties, around or just before I was posted there. They were called to his PMQ, and he, at some point, attacked them with his sword. Presuming that the event happened as described to me by several people, this was entirely reasonable and justified.

Although it would have been nice if they'd saluted him before shooting him...

He was wrong in the sense that it appears he acted like a complete glue bag.....but...still within the parameters of the law

Physically pushing a superior Officer falls within the parameters of what law, again? Is that a standard "investigative" technique?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'll tell you what I've done when I've responded to other police officers involved in various things.....it's called my job, which is to investigate......but thank you for questioning my integrity. 

Ok let's change it up a bit then...an MP responds to a pmq...one spouse officer, the other NCM.  Now we are talking about two service members on a base....officers word is taken by virtue of his commission?

This MP attempted to do his job and investigate and she felt, by virtue of her rank, that she was going to tell him he couldn't.....seems she was wrong.

He was wrong in the sense that it appears he acted like a complete glue bag.....but...still within the parameters of the law

I am in violent agreement with you on the part in yellow.

They both should have been charged though.  Last time I looked, at least in the Infantry, we charged people under 129 for acting like gluebags. 

 

[Loachman]

They both should have been charged though.

Yes.

 

[Jarnhamar]

..but thank you for questioning my integrity. 

But why should we assume you have integrity?  Weren't you just saying you basically don't trust what anyone says?
Do you not see the irony with your two statements? 

 

[RCDtpr]

But why should we assume you have integrity?  Weren't you just saying you basically don't trust what anyone says?
Do you not see the irony with your two statements?

When you're right you're right

 

[RCDtpr]

I am in violent agreement with you on the part in yellow.

They both should have been charged though.  Last time I looked, at least in the Infantry, we charged people under 129 for acting like gluebags.

I don't disagree...if I was the MPs CoC I'd have some pretty serious questions and if his answers weren't absolutely satisfactory.....enjoy your summary trial.

But you still haven't answered as to whether you feel the commissioned husbands word should be automatically taken over the NCM wife.....

 

[Strike]

First of all, this is the special place that MPs hold and that you seem to be complete,y ignoring, which, given your status as an MP, I find troubling.

Responding to a call that requires you to attend to a full on exercise should not and cannot be treated the same as if you were to respond to a domestic situation outside of the work environment.

That is specifically why we have MPs and we don't have RCMP, OPP or whoever handling all of our business all the time.  Even using your Microsoft example is wrong, because you don't work for Microsoft.

Although MPs must remain independent of the CoC when responding to a call during a duty situation, their being military means that they have a responsibility to understand the nuances of the duty day, the requirements to still follow proper protocol (proper check in at the gate, calling an officer sir or ma'am and respecting the authority of an OC who may well be responsible for secure equipment, etc.), and do their best to ensure that all of that is taken into consideration while carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities.

Then, when responding to domestic issues, it is outside of the duty AOR, so to speak, and much more in line with traditional policing.

Of course, I certainly haven't pulled this all from out of my ass.  This is knowledge that was passed on to me by an MP who I happened to live down the hall from for a good 9 months while in Ottawa who happens to be a Colonel.  It was a pretty good discussion over a few beers when the branch was working to gain some independence while still remaining relevant militarily.

 

[RCDtpr]

First of all, this is the special place that MPs hold and that you seem to be complete,y ignoring, which, given your status as an MP, I find troubling.

Responding to a call that requires you to attend to a full on exercise should not and cannot be treated the same as if you were to respond to a domestic situation outside of the work environment.

That is specifically why we have MPs and we don't have RCMP, OPP or whoever handling all of our business all the time.  Even using your Microsoft example is wrong, because you don't work for Microsoft.

Although MPs must remain independent of the CoC when responding to a call during a duty situation, their being military means that they have a responsibility to understand the nuances of the duty day, the requirements to still follow proper protocol (proper check in at the gate, calling an officer sir or ma'am and respecting the authority of an OC who may well be responsible for secure equipment, etc.), and do their best to ensure that all of that is taken into consideration while carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities.

Then, when responding to domestic issues, it is outside of the duty AOR, so to speak, and much more in line with traditional policing.

Of course, I certainly haven't pulled this all from out of my ***.  This is knowledge that was passed on to me by an MP who I happened to live down the hall from for a good 9 months while in Ottawa who happens to be a Colonel.  It was a pretty good discussion over a few beers when the branch was working to gain some independence while still remaining relevant militarily.

When did I ever say I was an MP?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

First of all, this is the special place that MPs hold and that you seem to be complete,y ignoring, which, given your status as an MP, I find troubling.

Responding to a call that requires you to attend to a full on exercise should not and cannot be treated the same as if you were to respond to a domestic situation outside of the work environment.

That is specifically why we have MPs and we don't have RCMP, OPP or whoever handling all of our business all the time.  Even using your Microsoft example is wrong, because you don't work for Microsoft.

Although MPs must remain independent of the CoC when responding to a call during a duty situation, their being military means that they have a responsibility to understand the nuances of the duty day, the requirements to still follow proper protocol (proper check in at the gate, calling an officer sir or ma'am and respecting the authority of an OC who may well be responsible for secure equipment, etc.), and do their best to ensure that all of that is taken into consideration while carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities.

Then, when responding to domestic issues, it is outside of the duty AOR, so to speak, and much more in line with traditional policing.

Of course, I certainly haven't pulled this all from out of my ***.  This is knowledge that was passed on to me by an MP who I happened to live down the hall from for a good 9 months while in Ottawa who happens to be a Colonel.  It was a pretty good discussion over a few beers when the branch was working to gain some independence while still remaining relevant militarily.

The answer to your question is located in the above statement.

 

[Strike]

When did I ever say I was an MP?

Sorry.  Just assuming since you seem to be commenting pretty hard on the ins and outs of MPs and their duties as if you were one yourself.

If not, forgive the error.  It's the impression you gave.

 

[RCDtpr]

Sorry.  Just assuming since you seem to be commenting pretty hard on the ins and outs of MPs and their duties as if you were one yourself.

If not, forgive the error.  It's the impression you gave.

I'm a police officer....coincidentally enough so are MPs

 

[PuckChaser]

But you still haven't answered as to whether you feel the commissioned husbands word should be automatically taken over the NCM wife.....

Trying to relate (then) Maj. Wellwood's case to a domestic dispute is a dubious link, and just shows you're stretching to try to prove your point (which is out to lunch). Same as the situation with a 2Lt in a bar. In both of those situations, the officer is the SUBJECT of the investigation, and although should be treated with respect (as with any person in question) due to their rank, they should have statements taken just like anyone else, and compare the evidence.

How hard was it for this MP to say "Good evening Ma'am. I apologize for intruding through the CP, however we received a 911 call about a possible threat of self harm for member X. Is the member here? Can you take me to where the member is so I can ensure he is safe and file my report to close the call?"

There is no reason for a MP to ever treat anyone with disrespect. They will only allege a service offense, a judge or courts martial panel decides guilt, so don't treat the accused like crap. A holier than thou attitude taints any respect CAF members have, and its a vicious cycle creating the large chip on the shoulder for some MPs.

 

[MARS]

When did I ever say I was an MP?

You didnt, but are you seriously going be a fucking dolt and play at semantics?

the most cursory review of your posting history - indeed, on the FIRST page of your posting history, indeed the LAST post you made before this thread, you wrote:

"I'll throw my two cents in as I can speak from experience of having served in the combat arms and am now currently in policing."

So, either you are a civvie cop and former combat arms, which means your opinion on MP issues is about as (un)informed and (ir)relevant as any other poster.

Alternately, you are a MP, in which case fuck off with your games about whether you are or not.  What are you, 12 years old?

 

[Jarnhamar]

So you knew people presumed you were an MP and you ran with it. Or like Mars said your playing semantics and fucking around.  There's that integrity again =)

Question for you.  Can you as a police officer lie to me in order to try and get information from me?

 

[Strike]

You didnt, but are you seriously going be a fucking dolt and play at semantics?

the most cursory review of your posting history - indeed, on the FIRST page of your posting history, indeed the LAST post you made before this thread, you wrote:

"I'll throw my two cents in as I can speak from experience of having served in the combat arms and am now currently in policing."

So, either you are a civvie cop and former combat arms, which means your opinion on MP issues is about as (un)informed and (ir)relevant as any other poster.

Alternately, you are a MP, in which case fuck off with your games about whether you are or not.  What are you, 12 years old?

That was very eloquently put.  Lol

And yes, ref being a non-military cop, please see my comment as to why we don't have them doing the policing of our affairs, except as they may pertain to after-duty situations (I know some civ police forces are contracted to handle CAF housing areas for example.)