MP Response to fire - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually I knew he was a cop from his posts.........as I certainly don't know him.
He stated that very early in this thread.

EDIT:  and in lots of his previous posts.

 

[RCDtpr]

You didnt, but are you seriously going be a ******* dolt and play at semantics?

the most cursory review of your posting history - indeed, on the FIRST page of your posting history, indeed the LAST post you made before this thread, you wrote:

"I'll throw my two cents in as I can speak from experience of having served in the combat arms and am now currently in policing."

So, either you are a civvie cop and former combat arms, which means your opinion on MP issues is about as (un)informed and (ir)relevant as any other poster.

Alternately, you are a MP, in which case frig off with your games about whether you are or not.  What are you, 12 years old?

You can infer whatever you choose....I never expected anyone to infer anything and if they did...oh well.

It makes ZERO difference whether one is an MP or a civvie cop.....obstruction is a Criminal Code of Canada offence and has no bearing on the military whatsoever.

Puckchaser....please show me where I stated the MP shouldn't have been polite?

Also, I'm not sure how you took me comparing a domestic to LCol Wellwoods situation?  My response was in regards to Mr Bogarts post saying a commissioned officers' word is worth more than someone without....which sounds a lot like that holier than thou attitude you claim the MPs have.

Not sure why Mars is getting all pissy here....an (in my opinion) interesting discussion is quickly getting jumped all over for what reason?  Because some guy assumed I was an MP due to the fact I explained how policing works and me pointing out I've never said what service I worked for has offended you so greatly?  Sorry Mars but my opinion on a police officer acting in the capacity of a peace officer is more than likely more informed than yours...unless you're in fact an MP....

 

[Loachman]

When did I ever say I was an MP?

Reasonably well implied on 08 September 2012:

When I was going through the process before I got an OT to MP

But if you're not, feel free to state as much.

 

[RCDtpr]

Reasonably well implied on 08 September 2012:

But if you're not, feel free to state as much.

I don't need to state anything....I OT'd to MP......whether I still am one or not isn't really relevant is it?

 

[Jarnhamar]

You're an MP (who makes an effort not to come out and say it)  who CTd after tour who has a posting history about pointIng out how "you're a police officer" ,  "MPs are police officers"  and MPs don't get the respect they deserve.  It looks like MPs being treated like real cops (which I'm not saying they're not)  seems to be a reoccurring theme and touchy subject.

Case solved.

 

[RCDtpr]

You're an MP (who makes an effort not to come out and say it)  who CTd after tour who has a posting history about pointIng out how "you're a police officer" ,  "MPs are police officers"  and MPs don't get the respect they deserve.  It looks like MPs being treated like real cops (which I'm not saying they're not)  seems to be a reoccurring theme and touchy subject.

Case solved.

I'm an MP...based on what? I was one at one point in time?  Interesting

It's not really touchy...it just boggles my mind how supposedly "professional" higher ranking soldiers seem to feel that MPs are second class citizens.  Look at you guys...I engage in a normal discussion...don't agree with some people on the boards so some members pull up posting history to what?  Discredit me somehow by stating I at one point was an MP?

Well this thread has devolved into nonsense so I'll recuse myself while you more informed people debate how your rank should make you above the law.

Take care.

 

[PuckChaser]

Well this thread has devolved into nonsense so I'll recuse myself while you more informed people debate how your rank should make you above the law.

Not a single person implied that, Judge Dredd.

Take care.

 

[Loachman]

I don't need to state anything....I OT'd to MP......whether I still am one or not isn't really relevant is it?

As you wish, but relevancy is in the eye of the beholder and whether you are an MP or not would appear to be relevant to a large number of people on one side of the discussion. Many, naturally, would take lack of denial as a tacit admission.

 

[Strike]

I'm going to quote myself here because it's whack feel is a pretty important statement regarding the difference between MPs and other police forces that you seem to want to ignore and, given that you USED to be an MP, surprises me that you haven't acknowledged and what the issue is in this case that the MP in question seemed to have missed.

Although MPs must remain independent of the CoC when responding to a call during a duty situation, their being military means that they have a responsibility to understand the nuances of the duty day, the requirements to still follow proper protocol (proper check in at the gate, calling an officer sir or ma'am and respecting the authority of an OC who may well be responsible for secure equipment, etc.), and do their best to ensure that all of that is taken into consideration while carrying out their duties to the best of their abilities.

Then, when responding to domestic issues, it is outside of the duty AOR, so to speak, and much more in line with traditional policing.

And again, that is why we HAVE MPs and why we DON'T have civilian police forces patrolling our duty areas.

Now, if you're telling me that an MP is well within their rights to handle every matter and subject the same, be it a duty or non-duty, then what is even the point of having MPs?

Riddle me that.

(Oh, and I'm a girl)

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm an MP...based on what? I was one at one point in time?  Interesting

Your post history. What you say, what you don't say and what you kind of say. Ultimately it doesn't matter.

It's not really touchy...it just boggles my mind how supposedly "professional" higher ranking soldiers seem to feel that MPs are second class citizens.  Look at you guys...I engage in a normal discussion...don't agree with some people on the boards so some members pull up posting history to what?  Discredit me somehow by stating I at one point was an MP?

Few points with that. Some soldiers DO treat MPs like shit and those guys are idiots. MPs are doing an important job. In my opinion MPs and NCOs are fairly similar.

You may think you were just engaging in normal conversation but you were really coming across like you had a huge chip on your shoulder. And honestly that's the biggest issue with MPs and I'd say the reason for a lot of negativity towards them.

As fr your history when you play around with semantics and seem shady people are going to look deeper, you're smart enough to realize that. No one is trying to discredit you.

how your rank should make you above the law.

No need to overplay what people said.

 

[chrisf]

You wouldn't talk to the OPP or whoever that way' why not offer the same courtesy to the MPs?

A few years ago, we had a pair of local police show up in the middle of a range shoot with an arrest warrant (I don't remember specifically for what)

They checked in with the sentry at the gate and waited quite patiently until the oic let them in.

I guess they had the good sense to realize there was a gate and a sentry for a reason, and it was ultimately in their best interest, as the individual was moved to the butts away from any weapons and ammunition, without being alerted he was about to be collected.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'm an MP...based on what? I was one at one point in time?  Interesting

It's not really touchy...it just boggles my mind how supposedly "professional" higher ranking soldiers seem to feel that MPs are second class citizens.  Look at you guys...I engage in a normal discussion...don't agree with some people on the boards so some members pull up posting history to what?  Discredit me somehow by stating I at one point was an MP?

Well this thread has devolved into nonsense so I'll recuse myself while you more informed people debate how your rank should make you above the law.

Take care.

My friend,

I never implied that holding a commission makes you above the law.  Nobody here has said that, in fact, I've said the exact opposite. 

In a military context a commission is important though, especially as far as the NDA, QR&Os and Code of Service a Discipline are concerned.  If a Commissioned Officer is witness to an offence committed by someone of a lower rank than him, he can ask that an investigation be launched and that individual brought up on charges.  In fact it's his duty to do so. 

I've seen cases where the Officer was the only witness and it was his/her word against someone elses.  The accused was found guilty in a summary trial because the Officer's statement carried greater weight, because they held a commission. 

This isn't civvy street and military law along with customs and practices are different for a reason.  In your example of a domestic situation, I would agree that the Male Officer's word is worth no more than the Woman's.

In the context of Major Wellwood's case, it is worth something because it is a military affair.  Now Major Wellwood didn't handle the situation well and she was rightfully corrected for it, which respects the spirit of the laws set fourth in the Code of Service Discipline. 

It's wrong though that the MP in question was not brought up on charges under Sect 129.  The purpose of the Code of Service Discipline is to correct poor behaviour and it's a chain of command duty to apply it whenever necessary.  I find the unwillingness of this particular MP's chain of command to apply the Code of Service Discipline disturbing. 

I don't have anything against MPs but I have a bone to pick with people that don't take ownership of their mistakes.  That goes for anyone wearing a uniform, not just MPs.  As you say, the law is the law. 

 

[quadrapiper]

Had an idle glance at the Criminal Code regarding obstruction - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-129.html. Who, exactly, defines the "duty" of an MP, when dealing with things not to do with a Service or criminal offence, and is that "duty" in those circumstances subject to direction from outside the MP's own chain of command?

 

[Loachman]

you more informed people debate how your rank should make you above the law.

I do not recall any instances of that happening.

I read back through quite a few of your previous posts both to see if you had ever clearly stated or indicated that you were an MP and to get a better general impression of you.

We tend to agree on the same things, actually, and I am not surprised.

But commissions and ranks and appointments DO mean something in a military organization, and much more so than positions in any civilian company. I have been on a base where MPs did not feel that they had to salute an Officer at any time. There is nowhere in the NDA, or anywhere else that I know, that gives them any such exemption. I am rather easygoing in general, and do not take offence if somebody misses a salute as rank is not always blatantly obvious on some uniforms, however consistent misses by members of a certain community is rather irksome. I greet all those whom I pass in the opposite direction with a polite "good morning/afternoon/evening" etcetera, MPs included, and a salute where warranted. Why can't they offer the same courtesy?

As for the then-Major Wellwood case, would an MP have considered it acceptable to brush off and physically push the CDS in his HQ? The VCDS? Commander Canadian Army? A Brigade Commander? How about a Battalion Commanding Officer? Where is the line drawn? Between Battalion Commanding Officer and Company Commander? These people have been granted the power of Command, and very significant responsibility. Claiming that they have no more status than that of a homeless person (who still has the right to be treated decently and not wantonly shoved around) while they are conducting their duty and exercising their authority is ludicrous.

And no, ExRCDcpl, nobody is trying to "discredit" you for being, either in the past or in the present, an MP. There was sufficient implication via your posts, intentional or otherwise, that I decided to have a closer look. People are naturally curious. I do not hold MPness against you or any other MP, and I have a reasonable appreciation for the difficulties of your job as either military or civilian police. I have had many friends over many decades who are or were police, and I have been a Pilot on two police helicopter trials.

I will not slag anybody because of their occupation, nor would I attempt to defend a fellow Pilot who was a knob or did wrong - or myself, for that matter, as we can be very self-critical.

 

[RCDtpr]

I do not recall any instances of that happening.

I read back through quite a few of your previous posts both to see if you had ever clearly stated or indicated that you were an MP and to get a better general impression of you.

We tend to agree on the same things, actually, and I am not surprised.

But commissions and ranks and appointments DO mean something in a military organization, and much more so than positions in any civilian company. I have been on a base where MPs did not feel that they had to salute an Officer at any time. There is nowhere in the NDA, or anywhere else that I know, that gives them any such exemption. I am rather easygoing in general, and do not take offence if somebody misses a salute as rank is not always blatantly obvious on some uniforms, however consistent misses by members of a certain community is rather irksome. I greet all those whom I pass in the opposite direction with a polite "good morning/afternoon/evening" etcetera, MPs included, and a salute where warranted. Why can't they offer the same courtesy?

As for the then-Major Wellwood case, would an MP have considered it acceptable to brush off and physically push the CDS in his HQ? The VCDS? Commander Canadian Army? A Brigade Commander? How about a Battalion Commanding Officer? Where is the line drawn? Between Battalion Commanding Officer and Company Commander? These people have been granted the power of Command, and very significant responsibility. Claiming that they have no more status than that of a homeless person (who still has the right to be treated decently and not wantonly shoved around) while they are conducting their duty and exercising their authority is ludicrous.

And no, ExRCDcpl, nobody is trying to "discredit" you for being, either in the past or in the present, an MP. There was sufficient implication via your posts, intentional or otherwise, that I decided to have a closer look. People are naturally curious. I do not hold MPness against you or any other MP, and I have a reasonable appreciation for the difficulties of your job as either military or civilian police. I have had many friends over many decades who are or were police, and I have been a Pilot on two police helicopter trials.

I will not slag anybody because of their occupation, nor would I attempt to defend a fellow Pilot who was a knob or did wrong - or myself, for that matter, as we can be very self-critical.

Although I said I was done with this thread....Loachman I found this post to be quite civil and articulate therefore I felt it warranted a response.

I think my comment that a commission meant nothing to me was taken out of context.  I was referring to the fact that when on a call, if an individual tells me they are a commissioned officer, it holds no more weight than anyone else and warrants them no special treatment when I'm acting in a policing capacity.  Be they suspect or witness I don't believe or disbelieve them anymore than I would anyone else.  Officers are human and like any other organization, be it the MP, civilian police, armoured corps, or Microsoft.....some members are better than others.

What I do have an issue with was the comment that a commissioned officers word should be taken more than a homeless person.  I never compared the two; merely stated if I was dealing with them, they would both be treated the same.  For someone to say they (officers) are essentially better than a homeless person was uncalled for.....we all put our pants on the same way in the morning.

With regards to your comment relating to salutes, paying respect to rank etc. I 100% agree.  When I was at CFMPA I would shake my head at the (usually direct entries) quoting such bullshit as "I don't need to salute due to weapon retention."  No matter how much I'd try and explain that Lt so and so walking by you in uniform isn't going to try and disarm you so don't be an idiot and salute....but it would fall on deaf ears.  Hopefully those guys have grown up a bit as attitudes like that reflect poorly on the entire trade.  And don't even get me started on that "don't confuse your rank with my authority" nonsense.

For me personally, I didn't really change anything when dealing with anyone of a higher rank as I treat everyone respectfully regardless of social status, rank etc. simply because treating people respectfully makes my job easier to do.

You asked what if it was the CDS etc?  I ask you, what if it was a civvie cop who showed up?  Would she have reacted differently?  I am not, nor have I at any point attempted to defend the behaviour of the MP.  As I stated, he acted like a glue bag and was a poor reflection of his detachment and the trade as a whole.

I'm not really sure why Mars flew off the handle like that or why Puckchaser felt the need to start name calling with the judge dredd comment when as far as I was concerned this was simply a discussion.  Oh well.

Anyways, I enjoyed this discussion and found it quite interesting to see other points of view on this.

 

[ballz]

No a person does not need to be detained or under arrest for a police officer to use force.  It's quite common for me to be called to the bar/residence/wherever and forcefully remove an unwanted person.  As soon as they are out the door if they settle down they are normally free to go at that point.

Ummm, I'm not so sure on that. You are not called to be a bouncer. You are called because someone is trespassing (breaking the law), not to "forcefully remove an unwanted person" (although that may be the result). If you get there and believe that said person is trespassing, then you have the authority to detain/arrest them and remove them from the premise, and charge them with trespassing. If they resist, then you have the authority to use force in that case. Not before.

I understand that it is easier to tell the person to leave and not charge them, and we have a whole other thread talking about police officers using their discretion, but if you are applying force against someone before informing them they are being detained/arrested for "x" reason then you are already part of the problem and not the solution.

From reading that case law the issue doesn't seem to be her walking into the CP; the issue was her telling everyone else not to co-operate.....which is obstruction.

Well I think enough people have commented on this point and how she never actually did that. Although I wish the judge said what exactly the Maj did that constituted "obstruction." Since she didn't tell anyone not to cooperate, I'm not sure what exactly it is she did that constituted obstruction. Being irritable isn't a crime.

Here's my issue with this...the MP was tasked to investigate (stemming from I I believe a 911 call).....at this point it is not up to a "senior officer in the CAF" who does or does not have investigational jurisdiction...that MP had a legal obligation to investigate.  For the major to walk out and basically say "yeah I got this now leave" wouldn't fly with the police in any other circumstance....why is she special?  An infantry officer has no more knowledge of the law than anyone else....being a major doesn't make her qualified to investigate crimes etc.

You also have to ask yourself....would she have reacted this way if it was a civilian police officer who attended?  While obviously nobody can say for certain....id be willing to bet the answer is no.  This strikes me as a case of a major who decided that by virtue of her epaulette, she could tell the police what to do while he was acting in the capacity of a police officer because he's a corporal......well guess what.....the judge ruled that isn't the case.

Being a police officer is a hard job....it certainly wouldn't be any easier when supposed professional senior officers behave deplorably and think they can obstruct the police whenever they want because they are a higher rank.

Being tasked to investigate does not mean everyone else has to cooperate. There are many instances I can think of where police could show up at my door to "investigate" and me say "Sorry buds, I don't feel like answering questions. Please leave my property unless you've got a warrant." Because they are "investigating" doesn't mean they're allowed to push me out of the way and walk through my house.

Let's change the scenario a bit.....police officer is called to Microsoft to investigate something and middle management comes down and says "you can't investigate now leave."  Every single one of you would laugh and say that manager was an idiot.  This is no different, a major is middle management in the company that is the military and she (regardless of what her ego may think) cannot tell a police officer how he will conduct his investigation or where he will go.  This was an ex, not an operation, and it carries no weight to any police officer if something is disrupted for 10 minutes.

No, I wouldn't call him an idiot, and yes, unless that police officer has a warrant he *CAN* tell the the police officer how he won't conduct his investigation of the property and where he will go (off the property). I don't know the nuances of the MPs investigating military matters and entering a CP, but your analogies show me that you probably need some more training before you go kicking down people's doors and brandishing your authorta all over the place. I would, however, be very interested to hear about the nuances of which I spoke. For my own curiosity and just in case I end up in a situation where the MPs want to come into my jurisdiction and I don't want to let them in for whatever reason. Unlike the civilian world, it is not as black and white as "do you have a warrant? then no," or is it?

The fact that people here are defending her actions and saying she had the right to tell him to leave etc is mind boggling.

I don't know if anybody is doing that. They are all rightfully assessing that the MP should also have faced charges as well.

 

[RCDtpr]

Ummm, I'm not so sure on that. You are not called to be a bouncer. You are called because someone is trespassing (breaking the law), not to "forcefully remove an unwanted person" (although that may be the result). If you get there and believe that said person is trespassing, then you have the authority to detain/arrest them and remove them from the premise, and charge them with trespassing. If they resist, then you have the authority to use force in that case. Not before.

I understand that it is easier to tell the person to leave and not charge them, and we have a whole other thread talking about police officers using their discretion, but if you are applying force against someone before informing them they are being detained/arrested for "x" reason then you are already part of the problem and not the solution.

Well I think enough people have commented on this point and how she never actually did that. Although I wish the judge said what exactly the Maj did that constituted "obstruction." Since she didn't tell anyone not to cooperate, I'm not sure what exactly it is she did that constituted obstruction. Being irritable isn't a crime.

Being tasked to investigate does not mean everyone else has to cooperate. There are many instances I can think of where police could show up at my door to "investigate" and me say "Sorry buds, I don't feel like answering questions. Please leave my property unless you've got a warrant." Because they are "investigating" doesn't mean they're allowed to push me out of the way and walk through my house.

No, I wouldn't call him an idiot, and yes, unless that police officer has a warrant he *CAN* tell the the police officer how he won't conduct his investigation of the property and where he will go (off the property). I don't know the nuances of the MPs investigating military matters and entering a CP, but your analogies show me that you probably need some more training before you go kicking down people's doors and brandishing your authorta all over the place. I would, however, be very interested to hear about the nuances of which I spoke. For my own curiosity and just in case I end up in a situation where the MPs want to come into my jurisdiction and I don't want to let them in for whatever reason. Unlike the civilian world, it is not as black and white as "do you have a warrant? then no," or is it?

I don't know if anybody is doing that. They are all rightfully assessing that the MP should also have faced charges as well.

You can't compare your personal residence to a CP....one your private property, the other is not.....apples and oranges.

With regards to the warrant stuff, as I said it stemmed from a 911 therefore a warrant isn't necessary.  Even private residences can be (and are) entered by the police without warrant stemming from 911 calls.  So no, I don't need to brush up on my training before I flex my authorita.

Your thread is a prime example of a hassle dealt with by every cop in North America everyday......armchair lawyers think they know how to do our job.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Being tasked to investigate does not mean everyone else has to cooperate. There are many instances I can think of where police could show up at my door to "investigate" and me say "Sorry buds, I don't feel like answering questions. Please leave my property unless you've got a warrant." Because they are "investigating" doesn't mean they're allowed to push me out of the way and walk through my house.

But you just went totally sideways here.........if it was from a 911 call [even a hang up] they ARE pushing through you to have a look.
[hopefully being smart and asking you first and with 'just here to help" tact]

EDIT:  Got beat out by 16 seconds ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ummm, I'm not so sure on that. You are not called to be a bouncer. You are called because someone is trespassing (breaking the law), not to "forcefully remove an unwanted person" (although that may be the result). If you get there and believe that said person is trespassing, then you have the authority to detain/arrest them and remove them from the premise, and charge them with trespassing. If they resist, then you have the authority to use force in that case. Not before.

Uniformed cops are moonlighting as security (bouncers), with the Departments permission, all over the place.

 

[PuckChaser]

But you just went totally sideways here.........if it was from a 911 call [even a hang up] they ARE pushing through you to have a look.
[hopefully being smart and asking you first and with 'just here to help" tact]

EDIT:  Got beat out by 16 seconds ;D

Appropriate tact is completely correct. This whole thing could have been solved with a stop at the gate and, "Sentry, I need to see your duty officer immediately, we have had a 911 call to investigate, and it is time sensitive." Maj Wellwood comes out in a completely different frame of mind, and may even show the MP to the individual in question to confirm that he was in care and control of appropriate military authorities who are aware of the situation.

This is taught in Use of Force training, where tone and words can either escalate or deescalate a situation. The MP had to resort to open hand control (debateable if he had to resort) because he completely failed at Presence and Communication.