MP's to start as Private, not Corporal... ?

[bishop]

Hey guys, sorry if this has been posted before.

I've been hearing that MP's might be starting as Privates instead of Corporals. Could anyone confirm/deny this?

Thanks

 

[Kat Stevens]

When did there stop being MP privates?  In my younger days I was registered as a weekend guest at the guardshack by privates a few times. :-[

 

[kincanucks]

Hey guys, sorry if this has been posted before.

I've been hearing that MP's might be starting as Privates instead of Corporals. Could anyone confirm/deny this?

Thanks

From where and who and are you in the CF?

 

[Cyr]

To ansewer your quest, Yes Mp's are private's during basic training in  St. Jean. At your graduation you are promoted to Corporal. But that also doesn't mean that just because you now have the rank that you can let it go to your head either. Besides now that you have this rank you are held to a higher standard than a private to. It's kinda like a double edged sword.

 

[Kurhaus]

I have some more news on this subject.  I visited the Academy last month and apparently many changes to the trade are currently being discussed at the senior level (CWO, Maj, LCol).  One of these proposals included scraping the automatic Cpl rank for MP QL3 graduates and getting back to having the troops work their way up.  There is nothing definite yet on this issue but as MP graduates no longer get spec pay until they are QL5 qualified, the "Pte" rank would be a logical step.

 

[S McKee]

I for one think the insta-Cpl was a very very bad idea, simply because these new Cpls were eligible for promotion to MCpl much too soon. No experience , no time to season as it were. If you start as a Pte, as I did back in the day, you had 4 years to get used to the system then after your promotion to Cpl another number of years of experience before becoming a leader. I remember when I got my first stripe it was great, and my promotion to Cpl meant something. The insta-Cpl took out 4 good years of experience. It's about time we go back to basics. If I had my way, anyone with less than 4 years in, would be demoted back to Pte.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I want to know why they are promoted on BMQ grad. Why don't they have to wait like everyone else? After proper training a Pte can write a ticket like a Sgt, under the same authority. So why are MP's so special?

 

[Bert]

Theres a few older threads on insta-corporals and advanced promotion.  However,
the CF ties salaries to the rank.  As a recruiting tool to attract applicants, semi-skilled
recruits may be given advanced CF educational status comparable to civy pay.  From
2000 to 2004, the CF tried to quickly increase the trained numbers of many critically
staffed MOCs.  Theres alot of perspectives on the issue.  Being from a unit having
insta-corporals and members who went through the training system, the tempo
of operations, trade courses, exercises, deployable readiness training, and
scrutiny from the CoC, evens things out quickly.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That's neither a reason or an excuse. The fact is, that they have no greater bearing on their trade than anyone else, they should spend the time, like the rest. Being an MP isn't rocket science. There is absolutley nothing, that make them special.

 

[George Wallace]

I for one think the insta-Cpl was a very very bad idea, simply because these new Cpls were eligible for promotion to MCpl much too soon. No experience , no time to season as it were. If you start as a Pte, as I did back in the day, you had 4 years to get used to the system then after your promotion to Cpl another number of years of experience before becoming a leader. I remember when I got my first stripe it was great, and my promotion to Cpl meant something. The insta-Cpl took out 4 good years of experience. It's about time we go back to basics. If I had my way, anyone with less than 4 years in, would be demoted back to Pte.

I agree with you for the most part.  I don't think that the 'instant Cpl' gave them that much more of an advantage for promotion to MCpl than they would have had before.  They would still have to have shown the potential to be put on the Crse.

As I understand it the 'political logic' to bring about these 'instant Cpl's' was that someone in high places felt that MP's below the rank of Cpl/MCpl were not getting the 'respect' that a LEO should get in the military hierarchy and performance of their duties.  That was before Spec Pay was approved, if I recall correctly. 

As I see it "instant Cpl's" took away even more 'respect' for their rank, as now everyone in the CF knew that MP Cpl's could be FNGs right out of Borden and totally FUBAR.  No longer did the members of the CF look at a MP Cpl as someone who had at least a few years of experience.  I think the whole Trade suffered from this decision.  It lowered the respect they got.

It is also a discriminatory act towards all members of the CF to promote one Trade, which also has Spec Pay, in such a manner. 

Put it back.  Civilian LEO's start at the bottom and work without any problems through the ranks.  What makes MP's so different?

A MP is a MP, no matter what rank.  Sure a Pte has less experience than a Cpl, and so it should be.  Don't try and confuse the Courts of Law and Public Opinion, with an experienced Cpl and an inexperienced Cpl, or you will denigrate the whole Trade.  At least if a Pte makes a mistake it is understandable and more supervision and training can be done to rectify it.  A Cpl will become expected to have the experience and knowledge and will become lost in the myriad of other Cpl's, some with, and some without, that knowledge and experience.  Not what I concider a good thing. 

It was a big mistake for the Security Branch to bring about this policy.

 

[ZipperHead]

I'm not sure that this isn't comparing apples and oranges, but didn't people entering as qualified musicians do this very thing (get promoted to Cpl at the end of Basic)?? I know that musicians aren't the brunt of unabashed hatred by all (most?) members of the CF like MP's are, so maybe people didn't give a rats ass that somebody banging away on a drum at a grad parade or Mess dinner that was wearing 2 bananas may have only had 2 years of service, but the guy/girl writing out the ticket for you doing 52 km/h in a 50 km/h zone with the same amount of time in would instantly be worthy of our scorn.

Backtracking somewhat to "the day", MP's had to have been members of the Combat Arm's, and then OT'ed over to the trade. Hence, there were never (or perhaps only rarely) MP's that were Pte's, as they would have had to have a minimum of 3 years in the Cbt Arms (to be eligible for LOTP) and then the training would have brought them up to the 4 years "insta-Corporal" (which I think is bone stupid as it is, but a competely separate thread/rant). Then that all changed, thanks to (from my understanding anyways) the blessed Human Rights business, as women didn't have to go through the Combat Arms hoops (they weren't allowed to be in the Cbt Arms, granted, but that is only a technicality) and could direct enter the MP trade, so men were allowed to do the same. Again, this is based on my understanding of what happened, so I am no doubt out to lunch. If I am out of 'er, please advise.

I personally think that it was a bad idea to get rid of the need to have gone through the Cbt Arms (or at least any other trade) before one could become an MP, as I believe one definitely needs to have experienced military life without the red hat before strapping said headgear on. I think a little perspective is needed before being able to do a job such as that. One of the best MP's that I have ever met was a RCR before he went MP, and he definitely seemed to have his head screwed on right (no elevated sense of importance).

Al

 

[Hoover]

Well, with a job like the MPs do they have to include every recruiting incentive to get new boots in the trade. Friggin Johhny Nomates!!!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What is it with the "inflated ego's" thing that is running rampant here?

Is your idea of an inflated ego because sometimes they must be the fun police? I admit, I've been out a long time but the MP's that I remember from 8 years in Pet. were not "inflated egos". I admit not always wishing they were around lots of times but guess what, I was in the wrong, and still did not spend a night there in the bucket.
Does the "Duty NCO" have an inflated ego also when he has to come over to help clear out the JR mess? I've done that many nights and also been ushered out many nights,.....no harm, no foul, just doing the part of the big machine that needs done.

 

[canadianblue]

A short comparison to the RCMP, whom I've heard more than one meathead lord himself over owing to the lessened training period in Regina (6 months at Depot vs. 6 months at CFMPA + BMQ).  Mounties undergo more stringent recruiting processes and are not paid during their stay at Depot and are not guaranteed employment upon its completion; people are found unsuitable for police work after doing all the police training.  This is not the same as PEP.  Upon completion of Depot and accepted into the Force, Mounties are qualified up to investigator; this may not be feasible for MP's given their requirements to perform military functions.  The physical standards for Mounties are considerably greater than MP's; given the levels of fitness in the CF it would make sense to have elevated PT standards for MP's instead of getting 6.0 to pass a Cooper's test.  Mounties are paid less initially and given less leave time -- at $43,428 they're paid just more than Pte 3 ($42,672) for their first three years of service and get 15 days annual leave until five years' service.

I've always called the MP's Make Police.

Then again the MP's also don't have OT, and assuming they don't go up in rank their pay grade stays the same unless they go on tours. As for the physical level in the MP's, I hear theirs problems in the whole CF with regards to members not keeping physically fit. I've always found that the MP's were very professional whenever dealing with members of the CF, and haven't really noticed much of an "inflated ego". But then again I've never really gotten into any trouble with the law so.

 

[Groucho]

The reason Canadian MP start as CPL (after training)  dates back in time to the Monkeys ( ouch the RMPs) in the British Army being LCPLs after finishing training! This is so they have some rank as PTEs can not arrest anybody!!

 

[Inspir]

I thought the reason MP's start as Corporal was the qualify for specialist 1 pay. I know it was not always this way as I remember the old man being a private as an MP back in Chatham.

 

[George Wallace]

The reason Canadian MP start as CPL (after training)  dates back in time to the Monkeys ( ouch the RMPs) in the British Army being LCPLs after finishing training! This is so they have some rank as PTEs can not arrest anybody!!

Groucho

Do you even know what a LCpl is?  It sure isn't Cpl.  The new MP policy of promoting recruits to Cpl only started in the last five years.  Anyone OTing into MP from another Trade would likely have been demoted to Cpl on the OT and that is not what we are getting on about.  We are talking about "Recruits" right off the street, being promoted Cpl on completion of their Trades training as a MP in Borden.  A Cpl with less than 1 year in the Army in some cases. 

Bruce

Times have changed since you got out.  All those MPs who had remustered from other Trades were then, now we have newbies with no military time in.  And Duty NCOs are not the same either.  No longer will you find them doing duties in the Coriano or Kyrenia Clubs.  They have almost just turned into after duty phone orderlies - almost.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Thanks George.

 

[S McKee]

The reason MPs were granted Cpl rank on completion of trades training was to compete with the starting salaries of the civilian police forces. Second the spec pay issue; while it irks the hell out of some people, they do require higher educational standards not "rocket science" as someone said but still 2 more years of schooling than you need to be in most other trades. Third, I'm  glad to read that there are so many friggin experts on the RCMP and the MP trade. There is a MP Sgt training RCMP recruits in Regina now, so don't tell me we're the make police or some other bullshit, MPs have for the past 3 years been training and acting as crse directors for Canada's finest. RCMP members are not trained to the level of investigator after depot. That's why they teach a major crime investigator crse at the Canadian Police College (RCMP), I've had the course along with several others and I've been seconded to a RCMP GIS/Major Crimes Unit as an MP (given RCMP Constable status).  MPs while most you hate to admit it (and I've heard every bloody bad MP story out there so forget about posting it) are just as highly trained and professional as the rest of the CF....anymore questions? (RANT OFF)

 

[canadianblue]

I've never seen a problem with the MP's they seemed to do their job just as professionally as any other civie police service, if not more. Usually the people that have a hate on for MP's hate civilian police just as much.