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Multiculturalism or Melting Pot Discussion- Merged

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E.R. Campbell said:
My current rule of thumb is that you have to walk for 15 minutes after leaving an MTR station to find good great food in HK. On my most recent trips I have stayed in Kennedy Town (West end of the Island) because there is no MTR service (there is next year, I think) so there are still plenty of really, really good places to eat. But even in super hotels like the Penninsula, with their celebrity chefs and prices beyond the reach of mere mortals, the food has been adulterated to suit foreigners' palates. I was a guest for a dinner in one of the super hotels (the Shangri-la) a couple or three years ago and we had a really good meal in one of their restaurants, but it was by a chef who was trying to bring real Cantonese cooking back into fashion. The hype told us that he used only traditional ingredients and he cooked using only traditional methods, eschewing the seasonings and techniques loved by foreigners.

I agree that there are some GREAT Chinese restaurants in Vancouver, especially in Richmond.

By the way, Dimsum, given where you are, now, try to get to Penang, the "pearl of of the orient," it has some of the best food in Asia the whole damned world.

I went to Penang in April, and I agree on the amazing food and, more importantly, it's ludicrously-low prices.  I may go back once more (I have relatives in KL and there) before returning to Canada.

Since Toronto is slightly closer to where you are than Vancouver, I can give you some recommendations for good spots in the Richmond Hill/Markham area.  And only one of them is owned my family friends ;)

*Edited to add*  Damn you ERC for making me miss real Cantonese/Chaozhou food.  The stuff in Brisbane (mostly Taiwanese-influenced) just doesn't cut the mustard and is ridiculously expensive to boot.
 
An apt comment, made on youtube in response to the controversial Coca Cola 2014 superbowl "multiculturalism" ad that hits right on the mark on the subject of this thread:

"If every other ethic group behaved like the Chinese in this regard then multiculturalism could work. But they don't, because when a culture is driven by religion it often includes a strong element of moral judgement about others. And when that religion also happens to be socially confrontational and politically supremacist in nature well that's when multiculturalism can tend to break down."

―Pat Condell. "Celebrating Diversity" aka the truth about multiculturalism.

The underlined sections apply to the subjects of the threads Islam and Society and They Walk Among Us superthreads.
 
"If every other ethic group behaved like the Chinese in this regard then multiculturalism could work. But they don't, because when a culture is driven by religion it often includes a strong element of moral judgement about others. And when that religion also happens to be socially confrontational and politically supremacist in nature well that's when multiculturalism can tend to break down."

Two points:

1) IMHO the Chinese, from their humble origins in this country as people who were prevented by law from bringing their families to Canada, and could not even be buried next to Christians, they have become one of our most successful immigrant groups, by any measure. One even became the Governor General. Like most immigrants, they have done very little whining and an awful lot of working.

2) I suspect this comment is likely directed at Muslims, but I have exactly the same feelings about the frightening, apocalyptic right-wing Christian  screamers and haters who seem to be over -represented in the Republican Party and to a lesser degree in the constituencies of the CPC. The overt introduction of religion into politics is, IMHO, a recipe for a very "un-civil" society.
 
An interesting commentary that goes with the major overhaul of Canadian citizenship laws announced today.

George Jonas of the National Post also hits right on the mark of the failure of multiculturalism: 

George Jonas: Multiculturalism encourages a new type of immigrant who shares our wealth but not our values

National Post

(...)- SNIPPED

It was in the past 40 years that the immigrant of dubious loyalty emerged, followed by the disloyal native-born, sometimes of immigrant ancestry, sometimes of Islamic conversion. The new immigrant seemed ready to share the West’s wealth but not its values. In many ways he resembled an invader more than a settler or an asylum-seeker. Instead of making efforts to assimilate, the invader demanded changes in the host country’s culture. He called on society to accommodate his linguistic or religious requirements. In 1985, a Sikh CNR railway worker refused to exchange his turban for a regulation hard hat. This was innocuous enough, but in 1991, less innocuously, a newly appointed Toronto police board commissioner of Asian extraction declined to take the traditional oath to the Queen.


The host societies’ usual response was accommodation. Turbans were substituted for hard hats; the language of the police oath was changed. Even ceremonial daggers were allowed in some schools. But accommodation only escalated demands. Requests for cultural exemption were soon followed by openly voiced sentiments of disloyalty. By the late 1990s a Muslim group in Britain saw fit to express the view that no British Muslim has any obligation to British law when it conflicts with the law of Allah.

Disturbing as such talk was, it wasn’t unlawful. Dissent was within our democratic tradition. Unfortunately, the new dissenters weren’t democrats. Their “dissent” culminated in threats, fatwas, assassinations, and finally massacres in American and European cities.

How did this come about? Three reasons stand out.


One, we retreated from the principle that immigration should serve the interests of the host country first. We embraced the idea of non-traditional immigration. We forgot that when groups of distant cultural and political traditions arrive in significant numbers, they may establish their own communities, not as expressions of ethnic diversity — festivals or restaurants — but as separate cultural-political entities.


Next, we tried to turn this liability into an asset by promoting multiculturalism. We stopped ascribing any value to integration, and began flirting with the notion that host countries aren’t legitimate entities with their own cultures, only political frameworks for various co-existing cultures.

Finally, in fundamentalist Islam, we’ve come up against a culture for which the very concept of rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s is alien. Puritanical Islam considers that everything belongs to God (or rather, some mullah’s idea of God). This concept doesn’t envisage one’s citizenship commanding a higher loyalty than one’s faith.

It’s not a matter of where immigrants come from but where they’re going. Refugees from the East are no threat; colonizers are. That’s where non-traditional immigration and multiculturalism become a volatile mix. Extending our values to others is one thing, but modifying our values to suit the values of others is something else.

By now multiculturalism has made it difficult to safeguard our traditions and ideals against a new type of immigrant whose goal is not to fit in, but to carve out a niche for his own tribe, language, customs, or religion in what we’re no longer supposed to view as a country but something between Grand Central Station and an empty space.


When Canada is no longer regarded as a culture, with its own traditions and narratives, but a clean slate for anyone to write on what he will, immigrants of the new school will be ready with their own texts, including some that aren’t very pleasant. The sound you hear (as I wrote 12 years ago) is the sharpening of their chisels. Increasing fees for citizenship applications from $100 to $300, as Bill C-24 proposes, is so small a step that it’s not worth wondering whether or not it’s in the right direction.

National Post
 
To put it in more concrete terms most people should be able to understand: there are cultural and social reasons Canada is free and prosperous.  Change the culture; change the freedom and prosperity.  And improvement is not guaranteed.
 
I still think there is a need for balance here. That balance is between the ability to preserve one's own cultural heritage, which every immigrant group including those from Great Britain have consistently done, and being a functional, productive, law-abiding part of a civil sociery which respects differences, circumscribed by the rule of law and underpinned by a broadly accepted idea of how society works.

I would not want to think that we would ever give any credit to that gang of pitchfork-wavers who shriek endlessly about the "goddamned immigrants" and rush from one immigrant conspiracy plot to the next. These people exist, and they have their icons and their mouthpieces. I see no place for that kind of stupid thinking. Most immigrants came here to work, and as far as I can see most contribute and get on with life.

On the other hand, there has to be a way to preserve the things that have, so far, made Canada a pretty good place to live for most people. We generally accept that people should be able to advance on their own merits and not be held back by personal traits and characteristics such as sex, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, social status, religion, etc. I'd be the first to admit that this has been distorted here and there over the years (bilingualism in Federal personnel policies might be one), but it's generally been true.

We have to be able to say, firmly but fairly, "we don't do that here", whether "that" is keeping girls out of school or the workplace,  wife-beating, bringing your old-country feuds with you, or using your place of worship to preach violence, discrimination and disorder. And, somehow, we need to be able to say it while respecting the right of free speech, no matter how much we don't like that free speech.

As I noted somewhere else, we have a right to freedom of expression; we don't have a right not to be offended.

Unfortunately, we have some precedents in Canada that may trip us up. In Ontario, for example, we have a very popular Catholic education system funded by a portion of the public purse. Although it is much more inclusdive now (my kids went to it), it was originally founded on religious lines.  In Manitoba, we have groups of people (Hutterites and a few Mennonites) who live in semi-closed or closed  communities, dress differently (especially women) and run their own elementary schools.

If newer groups of immigrants want to do these things, how can we say they shouldn't? And does it matter? So, what is the litmus test of "acceptable behaviour" versus peoples' rights to live their lives and be left alone?
 
pbi said:
I still think there is a need for balance here. That balance is between the ability to preserve one's own cultural heritage, which every immigrant group including those from Great Britain have consistently done, and being a functional, productive, law-abiding part of a civil sociery which respects differences, circumscribed by the rule of law and underpinned by a broadly accepted idea of how society works.

I would not want to think that we would ever give any credit to that gang of pitchfork-wavers who shriek endlessly about the "goddamned immigrants" and rush from one immigrant conspiracy plot to the next. These people exist, and they have their icons and their mouthpieces. I see no place for that kind of stupid thinking. Most immigrants came here to work, and as far as I can see most contribute and get on with life.

On the other hand, there has to be a way to preserve the things that have, so far, made Canada a pretty good place to live for most people. We generally accept that people should be able to advance on their own merits and not be held back by personal traits and characteristics such as sex, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, social status, religion, etc. I'd be the first to admit that this has been distorted here and there over the years (bilingualism in Federal personnel policies might be one), but it's generally been true.

We have to be able to say, firmly but fairly, "we don't do that here", whether "that" is keeping girls out of school or the workplace,  wife-beating, bringing your old-country feuds with you, or using your place of worship to preach violence, discrimination and disorder. And, somehow, we need to be able to say it while respecting the right of free speech, no matter how much we don't like that free speech.

As I noted somewhere else, we have a right to freedom of expression; we don't have a right not to be offended.

Unfortunately, we have some precedents in Canada that may trip us up. In Ontario, for example, we have a very popular Catholic education system funded by a portion of the public purse. Although it is much more inclusdive now (my kids went to it), it was originally founded on religious lines.  In Manitoba, we have groups of people (Hutterites and a few Mennonites) who live in semi-closed or closed  communities, dress differently (especially women) and run their own elementary schools.

If newer groups of immigrants want to do these things, how can we say they shouldn't? And does it matter? So, what is the litmus test of "acceptable behaviour" versus peoples' rights to live their lives and be left alone?


I am in complete agreement with your expressed sentiments.  I am not overly concerned with the long established separate educational systems that co exist in the Hutterite communities, Quakers in the US, etc. These religious groups do not have extremists attached that incite violence and intolerance. They also do not impose or push their culture and way of life on their neighbours.
 
Jed said:
I am in complete agreement with your expressed sentiments.  I am not overly concerned with the long established separate educational systems that co exist in the Hutterite communities, Quakers in the US, etc. These religious groups do not have extremists attached that incite violence and intolerance. They also do not impose or push their culture and way of life on their neighbours.

Not true.  They do have some sects that do push their culture and way of life on others.  Some sects even have a violent streak running through them as well.  If you ever get the chance, take a tour of some of the sites where guided tours are being done.  I went on one such tour as part of a Oktoberfest holiday to Kitchener/Waterloo.  We visited the area around St Jacobs, Ontario.  On the tour, it was explained by an Amish guide that there were a wide variety of different sects within their community.  Some were the traditional, no TV, no radio, no dancing, horse drawn buggies, etc.; some still wore the traditional clothing, but drove black Cadillac's and used Cellphones; while others would be unrecognizable on the street as being Amish.  For instance, he worked over twenty years as a TD Bank manager, and his family had all the everyday amenities you and I have.

I also wonder if you have never had your Sunday morning brunch interrupted by a knock on your door and found Jehovah Witness missionaries there? 

For the most part, Canadians have turned a blind eye, ignoring anything that does not affect their personal lives.  Until it does, they are content to remain ignorant of anything that may conflict with or threaten their social life styles

 
pbi said:
.... We have to be able to say, firmly but fairly, "we don't do that here", whether "that" is keeping girls out of school or the workplace,  wife-beating, bringing your old-country feuds with you, or using your place of worship to preach violence, discrimination and disorder. And, somehow, we need to be able to say it while respecting the right of free speech, no matter how much we don't like that free speech.

As I noted somewhere else, we have a right to freedom of expression; we don't have a right not to be offended ....
:goodpost:
 
I've had the knock on the door from various sects and religions (including Green Party candidates, Mormons, Jehovah Witness' and even mainstream denominational churches), and I'm fine with that. They have the right to tell me about their religion/belief, and I have the right to politely say "no thank you". It works in reverse as well, I can knock on any door and offer to explain my religion/political platform/merits of this new vacuum cleaner, and you also have the right to say "no thank you".

This is not pushing your religion or beliefs on other people, it is advertising (hence the added example of a vacuum cleaner). What is NOT all right is to attempt to force a school to segregate boys from girls, or force girls to sit in the back of a classroom at certain times of the month (to use a particular example). If this sort of thing is very important to you, then you can set up or join a private school that adheres to these rules, and even tell me about that in case I might be interested in joining, but you cannot FORCE me to adhere to those rules or impose them on my children without my consent.
 
Thucydides said:
I've had the knock on the door from various sects and religions (including Green Party candidates, Mormons, Jehovah Witness' and even mainstream denominational churches), and I'm fine with that. They have the right to tell me about their religion/belief, and I have the right to politely say "no thank you". It works in reverse as well, I can knock on any door and offer to explain my religion/political platform/merits of this new vacuum cleaner, and you also have the right to say "no thank you".

This is not pushing your religion or beliefs on other people, it is advertising (hence the added example of a vacuum cleaner). What is NOT all right is to attempt to force a school to segregate boys from girls, or force girls to sit in the back of a classroom at certain times of the month (to use a particular example). If this sort of thing is very important to you, then you can set up or join a private school that adheres to these rules, and even tell me about that in case I might be interested in joining, but you cannot FORCE me to adhere to those rules or impose them on my children without my consent.

Good Post. This is is the reply I would have made had I been more on the bit.
 
Thucydides said:
I've had the knock on the door from various sects and religions (including Green Party candidates, Mormons, Jehovah Witness' and even mainstream denominational churches), and I'm fine with that. They have the right to tell me about their religion/belief, and I have the right to politely say "no thank you"...

And I am fine with this, too.  As much as I hate having these people interrupt my solitude (including those bloody phone calls at dinner time),  I accept that this is part of life. Miserable and irritating, but in the long run fairly harmless. And, as long as we can say "no thanks" and shut the door or hang up the phone, then we can probably manage it.

I'm more concerned with concrete actions and efforts that are in very clear violation either of the law, or of the way we generally see civil society working. I'm pretty sure that we are only talking about a small minority of immigrants who would ever act in these ways, but I'd like to see it stay that way.

Perhaps I'm worried about nothing: maybe the Great Osmosis will gradually suck them all in and they will become what they behold, just as seems to have happened with immigrants waves before them.
 
It goes without saying that the primary loyalty of the new migrants should be to Canada.

The real issue is that the West as a whole suffers from a crisis in confidence in that it no longer believes in the inherent superiority of its system. Patriotism has become out of fashion amongst the MSM and academia.

"Fortress Canada" is not the answer. At home, If we reduce it to a matter of "let's defend Christmas", the right is going to reduce its base to an ever shrinking Anglo-Saxon demographic. It risks political divisions along ethnic lines as it is currently seen in the United States.

A different culture does not necessarily translate to disloyalty toward the state.
During the cold war, South East Asian and Latinos were at least originally hardcore Republican partisans due to  opposition to Communism.

Instead of ceding to isolationist and populist pressure, we should consider why the message has not passed through.

As a country, we shouldn't for example allow an overtly pro-Hezbollah rally to demonstrate in the streets, let alone ignorant politicians to partake in them.

To reduce it to a cultural war would be an admission that we have already lost the far more important political and ideological fight.
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/11/canadian-culture-survey/

A majority of Canadians say the country needs government policies to protect Canadian culture from being subsumed by American and other foreign influences, although 24 per cent of people say there’s no such thing as a unique Canadian culture to begin with, according to a new Angus Reid Institute report published Wednesday.

The numbers underline the ongoing anxiety among Canadians about the country’s cultural identity — an anxiety that is itself a defining characteristic of life in Canada.

I would suspect that many of those 24% have never left the big cities to see the rest of the country.  We have more of a unique culture, however you define it (regional/provincial or otherwise) than most places, such as Australia.
 
We don't have a culture. Period. Especially if we need the government to protect it...
 
I'd say they're correct.

There is no unified Canadian culture.

There's all sorts of regional culture (as a Newfoundlander, I assure you, we have a distinct culture), but no Canadian culture.

If there's one common Canadian cultural identity, it's trying to prove we're not American.
 
a Sig Op said:
I'd say they're correct.

There is no unified Canadian culture.

There's all sorts of regional culture (as a Newfoundlander, I assure you, we have a distinct culture), but no Canadian culture.

If there's one common Canadian cultural identity, it's trying to prove we're not American.

That's true, but aside from possibly Japan, where the population is ethnically very homogenous, every country's "culture" is regional.  Even Americans end up talking about California v. New York v. Southern culture, but "baseball and apple pie" is pretty standard throughout the country. 

Canadian culture is heavily regional as I've said, but things like hockey and winter activities/sports are pretty much cross-Canada. 
 
For whatever it is worth, our military culture is unique. It is based upon a volunteer regular force, and since the advent of NATO a volunteer force based on garrisoning the frontier against the barbarians. Couple that with a desire to excel and get things right that dated back to the Great War and a fairly horizontal social system. Most of us have served with other armed forces and I would challenge you to find one that gives better equality of opportunity.
 
If there was no unified Canadian culture... you kind of have to wonder why every time Canadians are portrayed on foreign shows, movies etc they always show us the same way. Maybe to some Canadians, our culture is so much a part of how we go about aboot our everyday lives and how we comport ourselves that it has in fact become hard for us to see it on our own from an insiders perspective. Just food for thought.

Also, after a number of years working in the mines north of Fort McMurray, I will agree wholeheartedly with Sig Op's claim that Newfoundlanders have a very very distinct.. culture...  to put it politely  ;)   
 
I think it's kind of hard to have a unique and easily definable culture, when successive governments and government led institutions are simultaneously trying to vigourously (shove down your throat) promote "multi-culturalism".
 
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