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Multiculturalism or Melting Pot Discussion- Merged

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Pbi, I dont care that your not white, I care when people don't assimilate. In the past all the non-traditional immigrants never complained about having to live our lifestyle, and keeping theres inside there homes. They never voiced to have foreign customs brought into our societies. The ones who come here and contribute are more then welcome, but the lazy, welfare, and ignorant ones have no place here. There need to remain a balance, to ensure the traditions Canada, since the 1800's, have upheld. Also to mention when OUR government gives them advantages over its own citizens, for the fact they'll work cheaper and save them money is appalling.

Crantor, please explain the correct answer.
 
Well one "tradition" of Canada is that *we* go looking for large numbers of immigrants from time to time. The colony of New France needed warm bodies, and the various English colonies needed to bring even more people to counter the French, then later after the conquest and American Revolution, took in the Loyalsits and added more people to keep the Americans at bay.

Canada brought boatloads of Chinese labour to build the CPR in the 1800's, and it was considered a very good idea to bring over vast numbers of Ukrainian farmers to settle the west and farm. Bringing hundreds of thousands of immigrants in the post WWII era to make up lost manpower from the war seemed like a good idea, and similar thoughts are behind bringing in immigrants today (especially considering there will be a "population bust" starting in the mid 2020's).

True, it wasn't all smooth sailing, and many of the people enticed to Canada may have felt they got a raw deal. The various governments who oversaw the floods of immigrants also made errors in how they handled the new Canadians, and may have initially overestimated the value of the first wave (but probably underestimated the value of their children and children's children).

 
Infantryman2b said:
Pbi, I dont care that your not white, I care when people don't assimilate. In the past all the non-traditional immigrants never complained about having to live our lifestyle, and keeping theres inside there homes. They never voiced to have foreign customs brought into our societies. The ones who come here and contribute are more then welcome, but the lazy, welfare, and ignorant ones have no place here. There need to remain a balance, to ensure the traditions Canada, since the 1800's, have upheld. Also to mention when OUR government gives them advantages over its own citizens, for the fact they'll work cheaper and save them money is appalling.

Crantor, please explain the correct answer.


Let's start with the whole tribe thing.  Google the Mohawk Confedracy or even the huron.  these were somewhat more than just "tribes".  They had immense territory and traded all over North America.  Also, you can't dismiss the contribution natives made to the war of 1812.  One of the defining moments in our nation's history.  We also never had a war on conquest against natives in this country.  If you don't think native history and influence does not have a part in they Canadian fabric then you have a very narrow view of what Canada is.  Or what formed it for that matter.
 
I didnt say anything on there contribution? Also The war of 1812 was just Upper and Lower Canada involved, in the end we conquered all of the land of Canada from them.
 
pbi said:
.... do you really think we can turn back the clock? Isn't it better to figure out how to make people feel like they really have a stake in this country? That way, gradually and in little bits, they will adapt ....
:goodpost:
Infantryman2b said:
I didnt say anything on there contribution?
Really?
Infantryman2b said:
The cold hearted truth is aboriginals never created Canada.
Infantryman2b said:
Also The war of 1812 was just Upper and Lower Canada involved, in the end we conquered all of the land of Canada from them.
I'll leave this one for better historians than I to answer, but try Googling "war of 1812 Aboriginal" and when you hit the space bar after typing in Aboriginal, see what word comes up first as an option. 
Crantor said:
I blame bad American tv for this....
FTFY - methinks that's where the "conquered nation" concept of Aboriginal relations tends to come from.
Crantor said:
.... read a few history books before spewing crap like that ....
Good advice, this.
 
I care when people don't assimilate

Both my parents are immigrants, and thanks to them, and a culture which accepted me and allowed me to "assimilate", I am in no way different than my friends who are 12th+ generation Canadians. Even if I was, that's what makes this country great. It was built by immigrants. You can't force a people to assimilate, you will do nothing but harbour resentment if that is your agenda.
 
Infantryman2b said:
I didnt say anything on there contribution? Also The war of 1812 was just Upper and Lower Canada involved, in the end we conquered all of the land of Canada from them.

With the exception of 1, maybe 2 posters here, "we" didn't do anything in that war. "We" didn't conquer anything.

Someones race or cultures contribution 200 years ago is all well and good but not as important as what they (we) do today. The great thing about Canada is that it's a reflection of all the different races under humanity.



 
Infantryman2b said:
I didnt say anything on there contribution? Also The war of 1812 was just Upper and Lower Canada involved, in the end we conquered all of the land of Canada from them.

No, you just stated that they had nothing to do with creating Canada...many thing swent into the creation and formation of Canada, and it's much more that white anglo old guys with snuff boxes and cigars with tales from the Crimean War.  And all that.

Again you need to read up way more on that particular event.  Pierre Berton wrote a few about it.  I would recommend his books as a good starting point.  It was more than just Upper and Lower Canada (some maritime provinces were also involved in case you didn't know).  Natives were are allies in that conflict.  In fact it is proposed that without them we might not of actually been able to fend off American agression.  Google Tecumseh and read about how much effect he had on the conflict and by default the forging of our nation.

Please detail this war of conquest against the Natives in Canada.  That never happened.  Contemporaries of that time may have imposed their will, negociated and made treaties with the occasional policing action but their was never a conquest.  The only people to ever be "conquered" on Canadian soil would be the Canadiens in 1759.  And even this conquered people would still contribute to the fabric of what is our nation.

You have a very narrow and anglo-centric view of our country.  Travel it a bit more.  It can be eye opening.
 
ObedientiaZelum said:
With the exception of 1, maybe 2 posters here, "we" didn't do anything in that war. "
I know this site has a couple of more senior gentlemen, but to suggest that they're 200 years old..... gutsy move    >:D
 
Journeyman said:
I know this site has a couple of more senior gentlemen, but to suggest that they're 200 years old..... gutsy move    >:D

Well....maybe they got the dates of their wars mixed up....been to the legion lately..?...... :)
 
Okay maybe im wrong with some points but I still stand by alot of what I said. For the future I think numbers coming in need to dwindle, and culture cant be altered for the feelings of immigrants.
 
I think the issue revolves around activism more than anything else.  Immigrants of today are well supported in terms of organizations and government assistance.  They are often seen as unfortunates from the third world that we are "elevating".  They and their supporters have more time and income to be activists for the immigrant cause.  This causes issues for Canadians who cannot understand why the poor buggers are not happy they are here, living in the lower strata of our society....ruddy ungrateful too...what ...what. 

Immigrants of 60 and 100 years ago came from Europe and often those countries that we had just defeated in the recent past world or colonial war.  They worked hard, kept their mouths shut and got ahead because there was no support from NGOs or government and starving sucks.  I am sure they had complaints about the system and their treatment therein but they did not have time to work the issue out.  They became Canadian because they had too.
 
Infantryman2b said:
.... I think numbers coming in need to dwindle ....
And one solution to that will be getting more Canadians to work in mining town coffee shops and pick fruit/vegetables.

Emilio said:
Maybe you should take your views over to Stormfront?
Just spotted this - let's stick to attacking/defending ideas, not folks, please.

Lightguns said:
I think the issue revolves around activism more than anything else.  Immigrants of today are well supported in terms of organizations and government assistance.  They are often seen as unfortunates from the third world that we are "elevating".  They and their supporters have more time and income to be activists for the immigrant cause.  This causes issues for Canadians who cannot understand why the poor buggers are not happy they are here, living in the lower strata of our society....ruddy ungrateful too...what ...what. 

Immigrants of 60 and 100 years ago came from Europe and often those countries that we had just defeated in the recent past world or colonial war.  They worked hard, kept their mouths shut and got ahead because there was no support from NGOs or government and starving sucks.  I am sure they had complaints about the system and their treatment therein but they did not have time to work the issue out.  They became Canadian because they had too.
Interesting description of both ends of the "how do we cope?" spectrum - I think in Canada, in spite of the friction, we can sort it out to come up with a solution somewhere in the middle.
 
milnews.ca said:
And one solution to that will be getting more Canadians to work in mining town coffee shops and pick fruit/vegetables.

And IMHO therein lies the big difference. The much-maligned immigrants everybody seems to be so afraid of will take those jobs. (ie: my Portuguese family when they first came to Canada). They will clean toilets, park cars, pick apples and tobacco and dig ditches. Yes, they will live three families to a house. But, you know what happens to most of them?

Their kids go to school, and learn, and adapt. And before you know it, they're living out in the suburbs in three-car garage houses. Don't believe me? I'll offer several examples of very successful immigrant groups (non-white and often non-Christian):

-Chinese;
-Indian;
Japanese;
-Korean;
and Philipino.

In fact, far from disrupting and destroying Canada, they have increasingly become a major part of the Conservative Party voting base. Tory: not Liberal. Read "The Big Shift" to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Now, while these groups arrived in Canada, and started at the bottom, and climbed up, who was sitting on the porch whining about the "damned immigrants taking our jobs", until it was time to get off their asses and go pick up their welfare cheques? And guess who's still there doing that, and will be doing that when the next batch of immigrants arrive?

Are there immigrants who don't pull their weight, or don't assimilate after two generations? Yes, there are. Are there immigrant criminals who should be deported immediately? Probably. But, IMHO, these always have been and always will be a minority.

Nobody can claim to have "built this country" because we aren't done yet.
 
pbi said:
Nobody can claim to have "built this country" because we aren't done yet.
Good point - maybe "helped Canada become what it is" may be better because it doesn't suggest an end state.
pbi said:
.... while these groups arrived in Canada, and started at the bottom, and climbed up, who was sitting on the porch whining about the "damned immigrants taking our jobs" ....
Not just here, either.  In Italy, I heard a lot of folks complaining about all those Eastern Europeans working as personal assistants to frail elderly living at home, but in an Italian city a bit smaller than North Bay, I heard of approximately zero Italians doing this kind of work.
 
Lightguns said:
I think the issue revolves around activism more than anything else.  Immigrants of today are well supported in terms of organizations and government assistance.  They are often seen as unfortunates from the third world that we are "elevating".  They and their supporters have more time and income to be activists for the immigrant cause.  This causes issues for Canadians who cannot understand why the poor buggers are not happy they are here, living in the lower strata of our society....ruddy ungrateful too...what ...what. 

Immigrants of 60 and 100 years ago came from Europe and often those countries that we had just defeated in the recent past world or colonial war.  They worked hard, kept their mouths shut and got ahead because there was no support from NGOs or government and starving sucks.  I am sure they had complaints about the system and their treatment therein but they did not have time to work the issue out.  They became Canadian because they had too.

The NGOs you speak of were created because Non-European settlers were treated differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagata_Maru_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_tax_%28Canada%29

European settlers did have problems, but at least they weren't targeted because of their skin color.

milnews.ca said:
Just spotted this - let's stick to attacking/defending ideas, not folks, please.

My apologies, but let's leave our ethnicity out of this as well.

I really dont understand how so many Canadians dont care about perserving the original identity and culture of this country. A simple bus ride, walk through of an elementry school in a city like Toronto or Vancouver shows that we didnt open the door to immigrants, we opened the flood gates, Anglo-European Canada is dying. Fast. There must be a line.
 
Emilio said:
The NGOs you speak of were created because Non-European settlers were treated differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagata_Maru_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_tax_%28Canada%29

European settlers did have problems, but at least they weren't targeted because of their skin color.
Just their nationality or religion ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian-Canadian_internment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Canadian_internment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis
In spite of these and other ball drops, as others have said, all these groups (and others) have found ways to be successful in a Canada we recognize while not losing or forgetting their heritage.  I'm confident the overwhelming majority of Canada's newest Canadians will continue to do the same.

Emilio said:
My apologies, but let's leave our ethnicity out of this as well.
No worries - I'm thinking folks here are doing a good enough job pointing out weaknesses in his argument.
 
Emilio said:
My apologies, but let's leave our ethnicity out of this as well.
Yep, a discussion of multiculturalism or 'melting-pot' without reference to anything that differentiates us..... must be sponsored by the Heritage Ministry
 
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