Mysterious objects plying frigid Arctic water-Can We Do Anything?

[Andrew]

Now I'm not worried about this just curious.  
What do you think Canada's stand would be if the north was being taken.  I know we would fight but would we have the man power or readiness to get  out there in time.  Our rangers wouldn't be able to do to much?  If it was subs scoping out the area which counties would it be?

Mon, Aug 19, 2002



OTTAWA -- Canada's Arctic seems to be competing for a place in the X-Files with reports of mysterious objects plying its frigid waters, strange footprints detected near shorelines and an unusual absence of marine animals.
Over the past couple of years, there have been at least a dozen sightings of unusual objects moving along or just below the surface of the water in the North, according to newly released Canadian Forces records.

Last September, Inuit hunters and members of the Canadian Rangers, the military's locally recruited force of aboriginals, reported what they believed was a foreign submarine checking out Canada's Arctic territories.

Most of the sightings took place last August and September near Pond Inlet on Baffin Island, where, on 11 occasions, witnesses reported seeing large waves and strange objects in the water.

Mysterious footprints were also found along the water's edge near where the objects were sighted. Marine animals had largely disappeared from the area.

Another object was seen by an RCMP officer in August 1999, and later by a group of hunters in Cumberland Sound off Baffin Island. Again, there was a noticeable lack of marine animals in the area at the time. "I'm pretty convinced (foreign submarines) are operating there," says the recently retired commander of Canadian Forces Northern Area, Col. Pierre Leblanc.

While he was the top military officer in the Arctic, he tried to warn senior defence leaders in Ottawa that it would be only a matter of time before other nations started to eye Canadian northern territory, which is rich in resources such as diamonds and fresh water.

Two Canadian Navy submariners sent to investigate last year's sighting near Pond Inlet suggested that strong currents or wind could have caused the unusual waves reported by the Inuit.

Navy Cmdr. Mike Considine said all unusual sightings are checked out, and in the case of the Pond Inlet incidents, there was little to suggest foreign boats were operating in the area.

"We didn't find any evidence that there were submarines," he said.

-- Canadian Press

Andrew  :bullet:        :bullet:

 

[Harry]

Two Canadian Navy submariners sent to investigate last year‘s sighting near Pond Inlet suggested that strong currents or wind could have caused the unusual waves reported by the Inuit.

Navy Cmdr. Mike Considine said all unusual sightings are checked out, and in the case of the Pond Inlet incidents, there was little to suggest foreign boats were operating in the area.

"We didn‘t find any evidence that there were submarines," he said.

Anything but the truth that we can not protect, monitor or maintain sovereignty of our North.

The True North Strong and Free, for the taking.

:rage:

 

[Linc]

That‘s not even ‘new‘ news. I read in the Ottawa Citizen about 2 years ago that in 1999, a Chinese gov‘t research vessel was intercepted off the coast of Tuktoyuktuk (NWT) after it had illegally entered Canadian waters without permission. It was only detected because it became stuck in the ice and was forced to radio the Canadian Coast Guard for help. Less than 1 month later, according to a heavily censored report obtained under the Acces to Information Act, the Citizen claims that a "submarine of unknown foreign origin" was detected lurking in Cumberland Sound, near the eastern tip of Baffin Island.

I don‘t think anyone is out to seize Canadian LAND, but they do want to challenge Canada‘s claim to soveriegnty over the Northwest Passage, which is the shortest route between most of the world‘s major atlantic/mediterranean and pacific ports. For example, the Canadian Arctic route from Europe to Asia is 40% shorter than the current route through the Panama Canal. The goal by most of these countries, most notably the US, is to have the Northwest Passage declared international waters and therfore open to any military and commercial trafic that feels like using it, as well as any petroleum exploration.

In order to successfully challenge Canada‘s sovereignty in a court of law, these nations must prove that Canada has not established itself in the area by monitoring, controlling, or administering this territory. If these contries can establish a precedent of sucessfully operating in these waters without being detected or challenged by Canadian authorities, then have a strong case in international court. Keep in mind, several nations, including the US, do not recognise this as Canadian waters.

Meanwhile, the Chretien govt has reduced the number Aurora arctic patrols from 22 per year to just four per year.

 

[Harry]

Of course it isn‘t new ‘News‘, but it is an indication of how vulnerable we have become. Linc you are on the money, I believe the precedent has been set WRT the establishment of monitoring etc by foreign interests.

And in the event anyone has grand allusions of our sovereignty over the North.

Put this into perspective. If some rogue or nation in self declared crisis actually takes the time to place people or assett‘s in our high North and do it for an extended period without detection, especially if they access natural resources. It will make for a very viable challenge in the World Court as to actual sovereignty.

Can I see the US doing this? Yes. Especially if they find themselves in another major fuel crisis and with the terms of Free Trade and the new North American Command, I see a very real threat. Free Trade, whether it is good or bad opens the door to foreign exploitation of our natural resources. This combined with the value of these assets and the tie in to the foreign powers National Security posture can make for a very convincing appeal to the World Court, especially if we are not able to repulse them with force or political will.

Just some thoughts to see if anyone has a counter or supportive view.

 

[rolandstrong]

i must concour with harry here. In many ways our sovereignty is under greatest threat from American interests and self determination. Unless our government supports our armed forces with a significant enough presence, the United States, with an inherent need for military autonomy, would just go in and set up camp, under the cover of some convoluted "saving canada" excuse. Sadly our polititians would most likely let this happen. In real world politics, military presence garners respect and geo-political brownie points, not huge age pakages to petty dictators (can you say Zimbabwe?).

Is there any doubt that we are under strength to defend our sovereignty and nationalism? (any thoughts?)

 

[Linc]

Not to mention incidents like the ‘98 Quebec Ice Storm, where the Canadian Forces were entirely dependant on American airlift to deploy our OWN troops in our OWN country! What kind of developed sovereign nation has to rely on other countires to come to the aid of its own citizens? And at the same time, this gov‘t thinks it can still stand up to the US over missile defence, International Criminal Court, and other issues? Good friggin‘ luck!

FTR, my understanding is that all aid to Zimbabwe has been suspended.

 

[rolandstrong]

You are right, Linc, all aid has been suspended to Zimbabwe. I was just providing a single (one of many) example that there is a sad tendancy to give short sighted aid to foreign states before addressing some significant defense/sovereignty issues here at home.

It is hard to grasp that concept when, for example, new reserve recruits are slated to go to do QL2/3 training, and then turned away at the last minute due to budget issues. etc,etc,etc,...

it all makes for good chat over beer...

 

[Linc]

Well I agree that we need to be smart about who we give foreign aid to, but foreign aid is also an important part of contributing to the international community and carrying our fair share of the weight in the world, just like peacekeeping and contributing forces to NATO and allied coalitions.

 

[rolandstrong]

I agree with you on this Linc. We are an industrialized nation, and I understand your point here.

I suppose my sentiments are similiar to Digger‘s in his question regarding the canadian arms issues (World Power). It would just be nice to see a greater political interest in our military...thats all.
Cheers

 

[bossi]

Huh?

"Not to mention incidents like the ‘98 Quebec Ice Storm, where the Canadian Forces were entirely dependant on American airlift to deploy our OWN troops in our OWN country!"

I was only a staff officer at LFCA HQ, and therefore did not see the tail numbers at the APOD ... but I think this is untrue (and dangerously so).

Anybody out there who remembers being flown in on a Canadian aircraft? If so, I‘d appreciate having the record set straight.

 

[Harry]

The equipment that was Pri 1 went by US Airforce C-17. The Pri 2 stuff went by rail.

The majority of us legs went by charter aircraft, believe it was an Air Canada 747 (?).

The return was on another civvie charter, don‘t remember, slept the whole way home. As for the equipment, it eventually showed up by rail.