National ID Cards

[geo]

one of the positive things about a standard North Ameircan ID card would be to standardise documents...... I remember going round with a paper Driver's licence from Quebec .... and being interrogated by the nice traffic policeman about no picture on my DL..... also, the idea of having an ID card that wouldn't have to be voided each time you move.... have to memorise new numbers, etc....

 

[redleafjumper]

I don't believe that making up a list of the cards that this could/would/should replace and guessing how much it would cost would be anything but speculation.  I agree that such a list would not be helpful in convincing people that a national ID card would be a good idea. 
Frederick G's point that the request is a logical fallacy is true. 

Some reasoned arguments would better support the diverse opinions presented.  I would point out that other polls such as one done by CTV a few days ago seem to show that this a very divisive topic among Canadians.  There are some very strong opinions and arguments on both sides of this issue.  Let's try to fully examine them on this thread.


(edited to correct word error)

 

[geo]

Redleaf.... would venture to say that this is a subject that is as divisive as the Gun Registry...... and prolly has the potential to be as big a boondoggle

 

[redleafjumper]

Yes Geo, I am certain that it is.  I am concerned about Day bringing it up again because I believe that he will find that a lot of people who voted for the Conservatives would be resistant to the national ID card.


(edited to fix typo)

 

[FredDaHead]

Redleaf.... would venture to say that this is a subject that is as divisive as the Gun Registry...... and prolly has the potential to be as big a boondoggle

I know you're not asking me, but I can't help it.

First, as far as I know this isn't even a project yet. It's something that's being talked about. People talk about warp drives, as well. That doesn't mean the government is going to try and build one. (Bad analogy, I know. I couldn't think of anything better.)

Yes, this does have the potential to be as big a mess-up as the gun registry. It also has the potential to be something great that's going to make Canada better, if only by a little bit.

Should it be studied further before even being a formal proposition? Undoubtedly.

Should it be killed in the egg? I don't think so.

Just because something can potentially be dangerous (the Big Brother issue), misused (again, the Big Brother issue) or become a boondoggle (like the gun registry) doesn't mean it should be pushed away without being given a fair chance to be studied. Also, realize that the "Big Brother" problem already exists. If the police, government, or whoever (say, CSIS or DND) needs to see what you do, what you buy, and what your habits are, they can already do that. A national ID card would put the government agencies together, something that's already more or less being done.

All in all, I'd say there needs to be deep thoughts given to this, before anyone can say it's good or bad. And none of us (unless someone's a government jurist, maybe) is qualified to make that decision.

 

[JBP]

I think the idea of a National ID is great, is just makes sense. 1 card that is accepted across the country without borders or issues.

1 problem I can think of right off the top of my head, being employed full-time in the credit card industry, is security.

Whatever is man-made and be un-made by man. Hackers...

If this card is to contain "Bio-metric" data, imagine how this would effect the way fraud happens? If hackers cracked whatever security is included in these cards, they would have access to whatever information is included on them. So when you folks talk about multiple cards included.... OUCH!

Identity theft would be rediculous to try and avert if they ever got into those cards... Say this card included your SIN, Birth certificate and healthcard info..... Just those pieces alone would normally take an identity theft hacker months or work to attain, this card would be his/her 1 shop-and-stop place for all that info!!!!

I'm not worried about the government taking away my "civil liberties".... Or any of that crap. If I was, I wouldn't have joined the army so the government could tell me what to do! Even on a part-time basis... But I see this as a major security issue against fraud, identity theft and maybe even illegal immigration practices....

Joe

 

[geo]

would also be an issue of access to personal information - which is protected by the access to information act... and many more.
Provincial & federal gov't agencies are extremely sensitive to sharing info......

 

[zipperhead_cop]

The only way biometrics is going to be used against us is if the bad guys start stealing hands and eye balls.  I'm sure it will come to that one day, but really...

I always love when the civil libertarians feel threatened by something they start throwing around quotes.  Who gives a crap what Ben Franklin said?  He flew a kite in a thunderstorm for Chrise sake, he is your intellectual spearhead???
As previously said, "Big Brother" is here, has been for a while and is going no where (as I am part of the arms of BB, I feel qualified to say this).  No one cares that you go to the store, buy Players Extra Light, visit the C700 animal porn site too often, drive over the speed limit etc.  There are so many people who are so screwed up, there is no point or way to keep track of them.  The ones we want are the ones who want to hurt OTHERS.  Just because you want to spank off with sand paper and are ashamed of it, doesn't mean I care or will act on the info when we find out.  WE DONT CARE!  Your illusion of privacy is just that.  If reality is too scary for you, time to head to Micronesia and grab a nice island of your own.   
The ID card is to sort out the good guys from the bad guys.  Get the card, put it in a box and bury it in your back yard.  Never use it again.  At least you will be properly accounted for and some guy whose name is Phan Thi Vanthergagimsamspism won't be using your SIN number to work and collect welfare at the same time. 
Screw the cost.  It is necessary.  It can be a simple process, or it can be a royal pain in the ass if people want to screw around and make it a problem.  How much did it cost to implement the photo health card or drivers licence systems?  Storing the bio information is only a case of more memory space in a  bank somewhere.  The expensive part is the other end, when you are verifying it.  Hell, maybe you can use the card to register your guns too.  Kill two birds with one stone [ :crybaby: :threat: :rage: AAAAGGGHHH BIG BROTHER, THEY ARE AFTER THE GUNS, ZEKE, FER GAWD SAKES HIDE THE GUNS!!!]
Get your heads around this one, people.  The only reason your credit card doesn't use biometrics YET is only because it is too expensive to install the verification equipment, and that expense has not yet outstripped the cost of reimbursing people who are victims of fraud. 
How long do you want Canada to be the unfettered playground of criminals and terrorists?  Don't let hippie dickweeds scare you (the same ones who were probably screaming OOOOO....SCARY CONSERVATIVES during the elections).  Get with the 90's and lets get on with the business of protecting this country.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Brad,
>I guess you don't use ATM machines then?....cause guess what "big brother" already knows about you....

Sure I do.  Big Brother knows that I buy groceries at CostCo, pet food at the pet food store, liquor at the liquor store, and withdraw a sum of money every few days.  About where that latter goes, he hasn't a clue.  Also, if you're suggesting we should allow the various levels of government, the banks, and every organization with a membership card or licencing arrangement to freely exchange information, I think it's time to dynamite the database servers.

I see the suggestion being advanced that since so much is already known, what's the diff?

You're right, much is known.  No one has explained what more needs to be known, and how the proposed benefit outweighs the potential for harm.  If I go to cross a border and the agents don't like my looks or my answers, they can search me, my luggage, and my mode of transportation exhaustively.  If they're still not happy, they can deny me entry.  In practice, it would seem there are still millions of border crossings and airline seats filled on a daily basis in the free world without a disaster every other week.  I am unconvinced further concessions of freedom to security are required.

It's harder to falsify many pieces of evidence than it is to falsify one.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
No one has explained what more needs to be known, and how the proposed benefit outweighs the potential for harm.

Who said more needs to be known? Noooooobody!!....just that the info is easily assimilated for those who require it.
Next time you hear a story of a cop letting a known parole violator go after a routine traffic stop because he didn't have access to the P@P system because the more the smaller "fiefdom" sites have to share info the more they take a chance on getting hacked, and then he goes off and rapes a 14 year-old girl just remember " I'm OK, Jack".

One system with top notch security would go a lot farthur protecting your personal freedoms than the hodge-podge of bad security we have now....

 

[FredDaHead]

If this card is to contain "Bio-metric" data, imagine how this would effect the way fraud happens? If hackers cracked whatever security is included in these cards, they would have access to whatever information is included on them. So when you folks talk about multiple cards included.... OUCH!

Identity theft would be rediculous to try and avert if they ever got into those cards... Say this card included your SIN, Birth certificate and healthcard info..... Just those pieces alone would normally take an identity theft hacker months or work to attain, this card would be his/her 1 shop-and-stop place for all that info!!!!

Maybe I (and others) haven't expressed myself clearly, or maybe you just got the wrong idea. (Or then again, maybe I misunderstood what YOU meant.)

I won't talk about what other people meant, but when I said there would be biometrics involved, I meant that TO USE the card, one would need to get their hand/eye/butt/whatever scanned. If you bother to do that, then, like Bruce said, there would likely be the best security possible. Also, the card wouldn't hold the info itself. That would be stupid. It would simply be a card that says to the card reader "ok, go access Database 8432984239b if this guy scans the right hand/eye/butt/whatever". Not unlike your bank card, (the magnetic strip tells the ATM to access your account, it doesn't contain your actual account info) but with higher security levels.

I'd personally say do away with the card, just install readers that access the proper information depending on what you're trying to do. If you want to buy something, the reader scans you, accesses your bank account, and takes out the proper amount of money. If you want to buy a weapon, it scans you, searches the police database to make sure you're not a dangerous criminal, and tells the dealer "this guy is allowed to buy an AK-47."

With proper security, there would not be any problem. And those who believe Big Brother would suddenly spring up, well, like Mr Cop said, wake up and smell the poutine. Big Brother is already out there.

 

[George Wallace]

It's harder to falsify many pieces of evidence than it is to falsify one.

With the Criminal networks in place today, I would say that that isn't as true as you would like to think.  I would imagine that this new card would have a far greater amount of security measures in it than any other card commonly used today and would in fact be harder to forge.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Next time you hear a story of a cop

Well, here we just have a difference of philosophy.  I'm willing to accept some risks for greater personal freedom.

The new card will doubtless be harder to forge, just as new legal tender is.  On the flip side, whenever it's successfully forged it's more widely trusted.  It's not so much the forging that bothers me, though, as the possibility that one day I might - for entirely good and moral reasons beyond my control - need to unforge my own identity.  Almost every day I hear and read stories how people in positions of control and authority abuse it.  Good enough reason, says I.

 

[JBP]

Maybe I (and others) haven't expressed myself clearly, or maybe you just got the wrong idea. (Or then again, maybe I misunderstood what YOU meant.)

I won't talk about what other people meant, but when I said there would be biometrics involved, I meant that TO USE the card, one would need to get their hand/eye/butt/whatever scanned. If you bother to do that, then, like Bruce said, there would likely be the best security possible. Also, the card wouldn't hold the info itself. That would be stupid. It would simply be a card that says to the card reader "ok, go access Database 8432984239b if this guy scans the right hand/eye/butt/whatever". Not unlike your bank card, (the magnetic strip tells the ATM to access your account, it doesn't contain your actual account info) but with higher security levels.

I'd personally say do away with the card, just install readers that access the proper information depending on what you're trying to do. If you want to buy something, the reader scans you, accesses your bank account, and takes out the proper amount of money. If you want to buy a weapon, it scans you, searches the police database to make sure you're not a dangerous criminal, and tells the dealer "this guy is allowed to buy an AK-47."

With proper security, there would not be any problem. And those who believe Big Brother would suddenly spring up, well, like Mr Cop said, wake up and smell the poutine. Big Brother is already out there.

Ahhh! Now that makes some damn good sense to me! I agree with that 100% and it just seems logical for something like that. Integration of services like that would be incredible and I believe it would go a lot farther in speeding up government services in general... Something like seamless information requests between government agencies.

For example, a social worker for the Regional Municipality of Niagara, they are a case manager and realize that 3 out of thier 25 cases this year is flat-out fraud, with the person falsifying information and working under the table and at the same time collecting pogey etc.... And yes, this does happen and exist currently in the system that social workers know when someone is working etc, doing illegal activities but has no will or way to report it...

Say they had a system in place to automatically notify the police and/or whatever other government agency is required to bring the scoundrel to justice... It would stop a lot of corruption and waste of taxpayer money. I guess that does sound slightly "Big Brotherish" but who cares! If it cuts my taxes 10% cause of some loosers dropping off the system and having to go to jail, fine...

Just an example mind you....

 

[TCBF]

Two problems:

1.  Technical - if it does not use DNA, then it can be forged, and we jucst have another boondoggle, only one most people will trust. Result: it will decrease our security.

2.  Political - we will not be allowed to use it to actually catch criminals, as government departments will not be allowed to give each other the info.  Result: only the criminal hackers will actually be sharing the info, and it will decrease our security.

We fight with one hand behind our back.  CSIS is not allowed to investigate corporate espionage, so if you want to spy in Canada and steal economic and hi-tech research secrets, you first form a corporation, and CSIS wont be able to touch you.  Cdn s loose a billion a month in profits from this theft, CSIS has been complaining to the government about it for years - and nothing happens.

The same with a new I card - no matter how advanced, the crimefighters will not be allowed to use it to it's full extent.

I say, just upgrade our passport system (biometrics, or 'Voight-Kamp' or whatever), and issue us all passports.  Cheaper.

Put only the basic info on it now, but add ALL citizenships the holder has.

Too easy.

Tom

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Brad Sallows,
Well, here we just have a difference of philosophy.  I'm willing to accept some risks for greater personal freedom.

What freedom, man? Did you not catch the part about all the info there they already know?
So, all the info is already out there, the card would be more secure....please give some reasonable reasons besides personal paranoia?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

>Next time you hear a story of a cop

Well, here we just have a difference of philosophy.  I'm willing to accept some risks for greater personal freedom.
The new card will doubtless be harder to forge, just as new legal tender is.  On the flip side, whenever it's successfully forged it's more widely trusted.  It's not so much the forging that bothers me, though, as the possibility that one day I might - for entirely good and moral reasons beyond my control - need to unforge my own identity.  Almost every day I hear and read stories how people in positions of control and authority abuse it.  Good enough reason, says I.

Perhaps you could refer your address to your local social services office to volunteer to have the next newly released child rapist seeded into your neighborhood.  Oh, yeah, you don't have access to the Sexual Offender Registry.  Sadly, it is never the self righteous prigs that get harmed by their anal oration.  Again, please let me reiterate:  If we want you, we have you.  Peoples homes get B&E's by the police/CSIS/RCMP every day on general warrants and get their homes bugged and camera'ed, and have GPS stashed on their auto's.  You went to Costco?  You were on camera as soon as you went through the door.  You are on camera everywhere. 
And I would love to see you cite an example of an abuse of authority by our Government in the sense of a misuse of information.  Ridiculous fear mongering.

Two problems:

1.  Technical - if it does not use DNA, then it can be forged, and we jucst have another boondoggle, only one most people will trust. Result: it will decrease our security.

No, DNA is excellent, but unless we have finger prick machines everywhere, ala "GATTACA" then you won't see that.  Retinal and full hand scans can't be faked, regardless of how many times you have seen it on "Alias".

2.  Political - we will not be allowed to use it to actually catch criminals, as government departments will not be allowed to give each other the info.  Result: only the criminal hackers will actually be sharing the info, and it will decrease our security.
The same with a new I card - no matter how advanced, the crimefighters will not be allowed to use it to it's full extent.

Beyond silly.  Of course law enforcement will have access to it.  WE are the whole point of having it.  Who else would need the info? 

We fight with one hand behind our back.  CSIS is not allowed to investigate corporate espionage, so if you want to spy in Canada and steal economic and hi-tech research secrets, you first form a corporation, and CSIS wont be able to touch you.  Cdn s loose a billion a month in profits from this theft, CSIS has been complaining to the government about it for years - and nothing happens.

Ahhhh, sweet denial.  I wish I could go back to that Neverland state again.  ****sigh****You can never go home. 

I say, just upgrade our passport system (biometrics, or 'Voight-Kamp' or whatever), and issue us all passports.  Cheaper.

Put only the basic info on it now, but add ALL citizenships the holder has.

Too easy.

Tom

:rage:  BLOODY HELL!!  If you don't care about that info getting out, what the hell does it matter if it is in a photo card format?!?!?!?!?!? :brickwall:

Other than poo poo feelings from socialists, there is no downside to this.  All it can do is help make our country safer.  If you have done something to garner the complete and undivided attention of an investigative agency, they have you now.  A photo card and a holo-magnetic stripe won't be the TSN turning point of the investigation.  Smile to the northwest corner of your living room!  Say CHEESE!!

 

[muskrat89]

Guys, power it down a notch, por favor....

There are numerous, articulate, well-respected posters posting opposing opinions in this thread, and it's getting more snarky than it needs to be (on both sides).

Make your case, and skip the jabs..  Thanks. 



Army.ca Staff

 

[Thirstyson]

One more thing... reliable, secure, cheap biometrics don't exist yet.

It's rarely even implemented in closed environments like computer security, on a National scale I can't see it flying too well.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>please give some reasonable reasons besides personal paranoia?

I don't trust the people running the country.  Do you need proof they can't uniformly be trusted?  (See below.)

>Nice jackass attitude.  Perhaps you could refer your address to your local social services office to volunteer to have the next newly released child rapist seeded into your neighborhood.

That's the government's job.  Those people you think should be trusted with my information?  They're the ones who make and follow the rules that put those people back on the street.  You have a bug up your ass about released offenders, take it up with them.

>Again, please let me reiterate:  If we want you, we have you.  Peoples homes get B&E's by the police/CSIS/RCMP every day on general warrants and get their homes bugged and camera'ed, and have GPS stashed on their auto's.

Speaking of paranoia and jackass attitudes, I don't think I need look any further.  Are you a police officer, and is it common for police officers to beak off and brag about the power they wield?  I do wish immature emotional cripples could be reliably screened out of police and armed forces.  People like you really challenge my ability to adhere to "obey and support lawful authority".  Fortunately, I'm acquainted with a few police officers who don't share your arrogance.  As for whether you can "have me", I'll believe that the day gang members can no longer openly wear colours.

>Ridiculous fear mongering.

I'm not afraid, but if you carry a badge, then I'm concerned.