Native protesters

[Jarnhamar]

It was either here or socnet where there was a very good thread on first nations issues and ways to sort the issues out.
One was getting rid of the Indian act (if that's the correct name for it). I'll try and dig it up.

 

[exsemjingo]

Anybody who knows paleotology could argue the "first nations" are immagrants as well. They came from aisia across the behring straight during the last ice age.

It has also been proven that the early natives wiped out the mammoths, mastadons, short faced bear, american lion and other known prehistoric megafauna with excessive hunting.

Maybe we should remind them of that? Then again maybe its better if i don't hijack this thread.  ;D

Thank you Ted Byfield.
We don't have to go that far to lay down indictments on these protesters.  I thought this thread was political, not racial.

 

[Jacqueline]

Actually, scientists still debate about whether or not these animals died because of climate change, or if they were scavenged to death.

The short-faced bear became extinct about 15,000 years ago, partly because its large prey became extinct, and partly because of the competition between the smaller, brown bears that immigrated toNorth America. 

It depends on the scientist.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

All this history is well and good, but it doesn't answer the Caladonia question.  Why should they be allowed to continue an illegal occupation and not be sorted out in a decisive manner?  By all means, protest.  Put up banners, go to court, do whatever you need to within the law.  But this landgrab is crap and the way Dolton is dealing with it is only going to make matters worse.  FYI, nobody can own a Crown road but the Crown, so the fact that they are barricading a highway makes it 100% illegal. 
The fact is that the government in Ontario knows how heavily armed the natives are, and at such time as somebody decides to go in it will be a shooting engagement.  No political types want to have to have to be the ones who are forced to deal with the vast numbers of illegal weapons on some reserves and once people start getting killed it will be pretty hard to ignore.  Plus, the OPP will be ready this time, with max video coverage of the event.  CTV is going to have some pretty hairy coverage of muzzle flashes from the treeline. 
There are heaps of credible natives out there.  Much like any silent majority, the vocal minority who suck are the ones who get noticed.  The Indian Act is outdated and non viable.  Scrap it.  Give native leaders five years (time line made up arbitrarily) to divide up whatever land they have to people who currently are using it and pay them out (and I would have no ability to come up with a figure).  Some will do well, some will thunder in.  No doubt since the community is so very close and mutually supporting, no one will get left behind and it will be a new golden age of native self determination.  But the treaties, laws and various arrangements only conspire to keep natives week and dependant on the Federal teat. 
It's gonna hurt no matter when it hits, so why not get it over with now when natives still have some support from the rest of Canada?  But if this turns into a shooting engagement, Joe Average is not going to really give a rats ass who said what to who in 1759 or whenever.

 

[exsemjingo]

There was an old Alberta Report article on that exact topic.  Besides, that is blaming the ancestors of today's Natives for something that, say, Europeans might have done in the same situation.  We aren't talking about Native Society vs Canadian Society; we are talking about the political fringe of the First Nations. Lets not give these protesters any undeserved credibility.
The protesters at Caledonia and other places can be condemned for what they are doing without widening the issue.  Otherwise, their demands get lumped together with legitimate Native Concerns.

 

[cplcaldwell]

+1

 

[rregtc-etf]

Since the Ontario Government now owns the land they should just build an L.C.B.O. outlet on it.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Funny how the thread got all quiet when you talk about what the future should hold...

 

[UberCree]

Since the Ontario Government now owns the land they should just build an L.C.B.O. outlet on it.

What is an LCBO?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Liquor store

 

[UberCree]

You see, its one thing to have a discussion on an issue, even a heated one.  But then some moron with idiotic ideas and prujidices speaks up and lowers the level of thinking to about a grade 1 level.  Sorry I take that back, my daughter is in grade one and she would never say something as idiotic as that. 

So rregtc-etf, get your head out of your ass and move on to somewhere that your level of thinking is acceptable.  Maybe you can take over the neighbourhood public washroom and you can write your racist memoirs on the walls of glory in there.  That is where your kind of thinking belongs.

Otherwise a face to face meeting should be in order.  I haven't choked anyone out in a few years and I need some practice on someone that has already lost most of their brain cells (you wont miss any). 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You see, its one thing to have a discussion on an issue, even a heated one.  But then some moron with idiotic ideas and prujidices speaks up and lowers the level of thinking to about a grade 1 level.  Sorry I take that back, my daughter is in grade one and she would never say something as idiotic as that. 

So rregtc-etf, get your head out of your ass and move on to somewhere that your level of thinking is acceptable.  Maybe you can take over the neighbourhood public washroom and you can write your racist memoirs on the walls of glory in there.  That is where your kind of thinking belongs.

Ubercree,....agreed and maybe I need to get a little prejudice cause I didn't even think of it that way.
Apologies.

 

[exsemjingo]

Since the Ontario Government now owns the land they should just build an L.C.B.O. outlet on it.

Which for people outside of Ontario turns out to mean...

Liquor store

Tsk tsk.  Contribute, or go away.  But first let's see an apology.

 

[Bigmac]

      Why can't people have a heated discussion without getting insulting. We all know what the LCBO comment was about. Ubercree has every right to be p@#*ed. Stick to the subject without firing thinly disquised racial slurs.

 

[Scott]

Further racist comments, real or implied, will result in the person making the comment being introduced to the Warning System.

There has been good, albeit heated, discussion here. Heated discussion is OK so long as it does not cross the line.

Seven pages and counting, I do not wish to lock this because of someones lack of maturity.

 

[a_majoor]

A rather curious development, after Prime Minister Harper's motion that Quebecois are a nation within a United Canada passed, Phil Fontaine said  "Any action that elevates the status of one segment of Canadian society over another is completely wrong." 

Frankly the upsetting idea behind Caledonia, other "First Nations" issues and Quebec Separatism is the idea of dividing our nation along tribal or ethnic lines, and the idea (always close behind) that these tribes are to be treated differently than the rest of us. This is the nasty, exclusionary face of Ethnic Nationalism presenting itself to Canada and Canadians, and serving and former members can attest first and second hand to the results in places like Cyprus, former Yugoslavia, and Rwanda, among others.

Either the "protesters" are breaking the law, and must be held to account; or the Rule of Law, one of the very underpinnings of western civilization, has been nullified. If it can happen there, then what is to stop it from happening elsewhere?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

..effectively taking one huge step backwards...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Liquor store comment was cheap.
Though, who wouldn't want an LCBO closer to home?

With this crap about a nation within a nation stuff that Quebec has pulled out of a hat why shouldn't Native Americans receive the same designation?
If we're playing that game I think Natives should have got that BEFORE Quebec.

To me the nation of Canada is a collection of other cultures. English, French, Irish, Scottish, Native, Negro, Asian, German.  All these and more have groups or whatever responsible for establishing Canada.  One of my great grandmothers is native (Iroquois) the other french. Grandfathers are Sottish and Austrian.

Whats so hard about being one nation, that nation being home to the best of what other cultures have to offer?
No one should get special treatment or designation, everyone contributed.

 

[Kirkhill]

The First Nations, Quebecois nation, Canadian nation presents all sorts of interesting possibilities that are now starting to exercise Duceppe and Phil Fontaine.

Joe Clark proposed a community of communities.
Pierre Trudeau proposed a nation of cultures
Stephen Harper has proposed a nation of nations of which the Quebecois are one

In response to the latest gambit Gordon Campbell proposes recognizing a nation of First Nations within the nation of Canada.  At this point everyone gets cheerfully confused.

Gilles wanted Quebec to be equal to Canada.  He has accepted the premise that Quebecois are a subset of Canada (however the Quebecois choose to identify themselves)
Phil wanted the First Nations to be recognized as equal to the Quebecois meaning that there was the risk of ultimately equalling Canada.  Now that the risk is gone he still wants "First Nation" to equal Quebecois.  What wasn't clear is whether each nation plus the Inuit and Metis (white folks with some Native blood or Natives with white blood) is an individual nation or a collective nation.

Along comes Gordon who says we really should recognize each of the First Nations as nations within the nation of First Nations within the nation of Canada.  Phil says hold on ...... does that give me more power or less?

And ultimately that is what this is all about.  Gilles and Phil want more power.  They used the word nation as a club to get it.  This was possible because "nation" could be construed as having a precise meaning.

Now, in Canada, in common usage, nation can be a tribe, clan, religion (Israel and Islam are both nations), country, like-minded individuals..........by obfuscation the value of the word as a propoganda tool is degraded.

Likewise with Quebecois.  It now means whatever the speaker and hearer want it to mean.  In that sense a lack of clarity is a good thing.

Where clarity is necessary is to make the people currently living within the boundaries administered by the government in Ottawa realize that by treaty, common usage and force of arms those borders are unchangeable.

 

[rmacqueen]

Quick statistic I heard today.  In Canada, the federal government spends, on average, $15,000/person.  This includes things such as roads, infrastructure, health care, etc.  When it comes to First Nations, the government spends $9,000/person.  And we wonder why they are in the state they are.