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Native protesters

Trinity said:
I'm actually quite disappointed in you ambex.

You've posted once in this thread.. I checked all of your posts.

His comment is not directly pointed at you.
Also, you have no right to drop the race card, especially being white.

Your comment is cheap, insulting, and trolling.

Your comment wasn't meant to encourage dialogue... it was meant to
start a fight.  And I'm stopping it.   Everyone back on topic... and let
a mod come and erase the last few posts including mine.

Your right, it wasn't ment to encourage dialogue, but if you think I am the only person here who has "dropped the race card" your wronge. You yourself just dropped it - "especially being white." I didnt say it to start a fight I said it as a counter-point, and I realise it wasnt necesarily directed at me. Lets get back on topic.
 
One cannot drop the race card... when dealing with ones own race.

Dropping the race card is claiming discrimination because someone
of another usually oppressive race is acting over another.

You're white, I'm white.  There is no race card played.  I'm telling
you as another white person, I found your comments in poor taste. 


edit..  the especially cause your white comment was linked to
stuff I deleted from my post before posting it.. btw

Because... everything in this society is geared towards the white young male
and since we're white young males, we don't recognize this.  It must be
very different to be Ubercree sitting and watching us debate how to deal
with his races... almost surreal actually.  That may help explain how it
wasn't a race card comment...
 
Scott said:
Ease up there. I see no "bullying" here, you are complaining about cheap shots and then you deliver one.
The reference to bullies was not mine but responding to post #200 by trinity

I have said my piece now back to the subject at hand
 
Trinity said:
One cannot drop the race card... when dealing with ones own race.

Dropping the race card is claiming discrimination because someone
of another usually oppressive race is acting over another.

You're white, I'm white.  There is no race card played.  I'm telling
you as another white person, I found your comments in poor taste. 


edit..  the especially cause your white comment was linked to
stuff I deleted from my post before posting it.. btw

Because... everything in this society is geared towards the white young male
and since we're white young males, we don't recognize this.  It must be
very different to be Ubercree sitting and watching us debate how to deal
with his races... almost surreal actually.   That may help explain how it
wasn't a race card comment...

Point taken. One counter-point though, just because we are both white does not mean that we cannot be racist towards other white people. A racist comment is racist wether you say it against someone of your own "race" or another. (I dont like the word race unless we are talking about the entirety of the human race.) Please do not take this as me saying that you are racist. I am young not dumb.   :)
There have been times on this and other forums as well as in the real world where I have taken offence to comments regarding my "race" (wether directly or indirectly), as we all know it is not a good fealing, I apologize if anything I posted was offensive to UberCree or anyone else.
 
A short point: "racism" is over-used; a better term would be "culturalism" since it is usually cultural differences that are at the root of different perceptions.

>It also still wouldn't help the economic situation either as the problems are systemic.  The fact that anyone on a reserve cannot get a bank loan limits their ability to generate income.  Non-natives usually start creating a credit history by getting a credit card or car loan using a co-signor.

It's not a systemic problem.  The order goes something like this: acquire jobs skills and education; acquire career- or lifetime-oriented employment; acquire assets and establish credit history.  If you drop out of public education and can't hold your attention to a job, you've fucked yourself.  No-one else has done it to you.
 
Okay...first time posting so be gentle. 

I deal with natural resources and first nations daily.  I'm white, was raised in the north around Cree and Dene'thai comunities and have worked with Ojibiway, Cree, Stoney, Chipewayean, Beaver, Dene'thai, Sioux and Slavey reserves along with the numerous Metis communities around.  I've also was educated at university in a couple of major centers so have seen a lot of Canada.    What I find interesting here is the education all sides are learning and I still learn myself. 

For those that want to learn all I can provide is some advice:
1) The cultures and tranditions of each cultural First Nation are vastly different.  Confusing Iroquis for Sioux for Cree customs gets you in a lot of trouble at times and may permanantly damage your credibility if you are trying to build a relationship.
2) Understand the history of those first nations locally and (if) a treaty was signed.  There is a big difference between the lifestyles of folks in the Robinson-Superior treaty versus Treaty 8 due to both first nation and european goverment objectives of the time.  Also..no treaty is 100% accepted.  Where I currently work we are dealing with 5 VALID land claims as those communities did NOT sign Treaty 8 even though their neighbors did.
3) The role of family.  This was something that I did not understand until working overseas but family is key.  Unless the family and community support a proposal (name the subject) you have a very tough battle. 
4) While many natives argue the white man does not respect natives I've had many terrible experiences with the reverse.  My family is tied to the land and follows many of the same customs as the first nations.  However...treat the experience as dealing with an individual and not the family or first nation or race.  I made this mistake in my youth and took many years to recognize it and change.
5) Wealth is a relative thing.  You can say that people on reserves are poor or underfunded but I would argue that it is more a reflection of local wealth. Many northern communities (wealth aside) are in rough shape and face the same local cultural pressures first nations do.  Likewise many near more prosperous communities seem to much better.
6) Relationships can be frusterating.  In many regards I prefer dealing with those communities undergoing the land claim process as the roles of the "little government" or province and the "big government" or feds is much cleaner than those who work through applying federal legislation on a provincial mandate (education?) with differing levels of funding.
7) as mentioned in a earlier posting it's about perspective.  95% of people you don't hear about but you do hear about extremetists in any field whether they are enviromentalists, politicians, non-government organizations and those are who shape our experiences.
8) knowledge is key. Education of both yourself and the client is crucial.  However you must commit to the process to build the trust needed.  Meeting an illiterate elder who does some trapping, handing him a cheque and some paper in a foreign language gets you no where and only builds resentment.  Meeting him and arranging a pre planning meeting through the community (to arrange for a translator) at a location of his choice to find out what you may be impacting in advance of operations and his/her concerns is a much differnt story.
9) Don't split hairs and try to debate laws or rights.  Concentrate on issues and leave the laws to the lawyers.  You don't get respect for spewing regulations.  This is why bringing OPP (as per the original article) or the military in sours relations so much.  You may not like it but spewing laws and trying to intimidate a party doesn't resolve the solution.  In Caldonia...both parties are guilty of this flaw in my opinion.
10) Money doesn't normally provide the "hand up" as refered to.  However having the patience to understand the differences in culture and work towards the strengths of those backgrounds gives people the bosot they need.  We deal often with illiterate fire crew leaders who know the buisness inside and out..but are hampered by their education.  So partner them with a young kid that doesn't know anything about the fireline, make him do the paperwork with the leader, and both gain respect - the elder gets the formal recognition of his leadership and you are acknowledging a potential future leader.  Think the Sgt. and OC or 2nd Lt. relationship...if both work together the troops do well.

You and I can't change the world or history of Aboriginal people today.  But trying to follow these basic guidelines sure has made my life much easier and helped put many "conflict", "media events", "land claims" into perspective.

Hope it helps.
 
Very much so.

I have a PM or two on this issue and with this post and a few others would like to follow up, perhaps tonight.

I think it's clear much learning is to be done, on all sides. From that understanding may follow.  Finally, someday, perhaps a solution or more correctly a set of solutions.....will arise
 
foresterab,

Thanks for that post, and now that you know we are here, drop by now and then.

Tom
 
TCBF....

Now that I know this is here you'll see me reading posts at least a lot.  Too many veterns of all ages have influenced me and my career not to try to learn as much as I can about the forces and hopefully return the favor.
 
Great initial post foresterab.  Hope to hear more from you.

Cheers.
 
UberCree said:
If I had answers, I'd be the first to tell you.  My answer would involves increasing bold eagle so every FN youth was a conscript, but I dont think that would fly.

I have had the pleasure of instructing several recruits of native extraction, and in every case they were outstanding candidates because they were SOLDIERS and not natives. They recognized that in the military environment they needed to adopt the customs and behaviours of soldiers, and did so to great personal and professional effect.

On the other hand, I have also instructed soldiers from all kinds of ethnic backgrounds (including "white") who were unable or unwilling to adapt themselves to the military culture, and who were therefore a drag on the system at best, and dangerous liabilities at worst.

The lesson is that adaptation and "assimilation" is needed to succeed in 21rst century Canada (as it has always been), and if you don't want to adapt, then you won't succeed or thrive. There is no reason that a person cannot celebrate or maintain their parent cultural traditions (as noted, there are ethnic clubs, communities and even neighbourhoods in most Canadian cities) while still being Canadians.
 
a_majoor said:
I have had the pleasure of instructing several recruits of native extraction, and in every case they were outstanding candidates
Perhaps this was because of their culture not inspite of it.
 
rmacqueen said:
Perhaps this was because of their culture not inspite of it.

I have also had outstanding soldiers who were also Hindu, Sikh, Islamic, Jewish, Japanese, Romanian, British, male and female, Maritimers and Quebecers........I have also had the extreme misfortune of dealing with complete wastes of oxygen who were of Hindu, Sikh, Islamic, Jewish, Japanese, Romanian, British, male and female, Maritimers and Quebecer extraction.

It's all about the person.
 
rmacqueen said:
Perhaps this was because of their culture not inspite of it.
What's next, "Irish Candidates who couldn't drink enough whiskey or eat enough potatoes?"
For the record, I've seen no attributes in candidates/soldiers/superiors that was attributable to race, but I must admit that my fellow soldiers who are female generally smell nicer than males. ;)
 
Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
What's next, "Irish Candidates who couldn't drink enough whiskey or eat enough potatoes?"
For the record, I've seen no attributes in candidates/soldiers/superiors that was attributable to race, but I must admit that my fellow soldiers who are female generally smell nicer than males. ;)
Ah, but culture is not race and culture definitely has an effect on attitude.  A group living in adversity grows up with a different attitude than one growing up in luxury.  You often see a different attitude from rural people versus urban.  People in B.C. like to say that people from Ontario live to work, while people from B.C. work to live.  Two different cultures.
 
a_majoor said:
The lesson is that adaptation and "assimilation" is needed to succeed in 21rst century Canada (as it has always been), and if you don't want to adapt, then you won't succeed or thrive. There is no reason that a person cannot celebrate or maintain their parent cultural traditions (as noted, there are ethnic clubs, communities and even neighbourhoods in most Canadian cities) while still being Canadians.

Part of the definition of being 'Canadian' is that we do NOT have to assimilate.  The Multiculturalism Act(s) (federal and provincial) are evidence of this.  You may disagree with this part of our identity and wish everyone to assimilate WASP values, but Canada is defined by its multicultural heritage (Its multi-NATION status  ;D).  By pushing for assimilation, you will create conflict, distrust and balkanization. 
 
Did he SAY "WASP values"??

Ubercree,
You seem like a decent enough person,......................how can you justify tossing out that race card and then expect others [ like the LCBO clown] to not toss it back?  We were almost back on some sort of track again.........


If I may put forward what " assimilation" means to me, it is the common goal for the common good of ALL Canadians.
Yes, in the past I know this[assimilation] meant something totally different and hideous, but I'm not talking about making someone into something else, just making Canada into something 'more together' so that we don't Balkinize in the future.

It's really too bad that I have learned more Native Sons culture working in prisons than I ever learned in school.........and thats wrong.
 
>You may disagree with this part of our identity and wish everyone to assimilate WASP values,

To answer that question, I'd have to first see what you imagine are WASP values.  There were some very pro-NDP (and Marxist) ancestors in my family tree a couple of generations back, but of the "fair day's wages for a fair day's work" variety.  That anyone should expect to live, let alone live well, without a fair day's work would not have occurred to them.  Is that a WASP value, or do you refer to trappings such as attending an Anglican church and revering the Queen?
 
foresterab said:
9) Don't split hairs and try to debate laws or rights.  Concentrate on issues and leave the laws to the lawyers.  You don't get respect for spewing regulations.  This is why bringing OPP (as per the original article) or the military in sours relations so much.  You may not like it but spewing laws and trying to intimidate a party doesn't resolve the solution.   In Caldonia...both parties are guilty of this flaw in my opinion.
The Caledonia protesters know what they are doing.  I guess the authorities could have been even more understanding, but never the less, only the protesters are breaking the law.
Further, you cannot lump all Natives together.  There is a difference between legitimate political action and forming blockades.
 
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