• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Naval sharpshooters

Ex-Dragoon

Army.ca Fixture
Inactive
Reaction score
1
Points
430
I know there are a few out there and just wanted your opinion. Do you folks think it would make more sense to cover an NLBP or any sort of operation with a dedicated anti-material rifle or larger caliber sniper rifle instead of a C7. It goes without saying that the .50s are manned, but would adopting a .338 increase the flexibility a CO might have?
 
Why not?  Introducing more fire power always opens new doors.
 
During boarding ops in OP APOLLO, my 2nd greatest concern for the safety of my sailors was the idea of the .50 cal opening up on the VOI to cover the boarding team. I would much rather have the C-9 cover us instead.
 
I think adopting a DMR/AMR would enable the CO to provide more accurate fire then that off a HMG.
 
First of all, as a member of the Boarding Team onboard another vessel I would not want to be covered with a weapon who's purpose is to provide grazing/supressing fire. This type of weapon would be alright to use until the team breaches the ship in question.

There are many issues that have to be looked at. For Example, how many people are experience shooting from a moving platform at a moving platform while creating your own head wind and while pitching and rolling? Not many if there is anyone around at all.

Currently there are a few Combat Shooting Teams around the Navy. The only people I would trust with accurately covering a team on another ship would be the senior members of these teams. The reason is that those senior members shoot extensively out to a distance of 500 meters with a C7A1 and out to a distance of 800 meters with a C3A1. I would not want someone who picks up a rifle one day a year to cover me on another vessel.

That being all said, .338 would be a nice addition to the ships SA locker, but .308 is all that really is required accomplish the job.
 
I am thinking an AMR might prove more valuable as it could be used as well to disable equipment and to penetrate makeshift armour.
 
Navalsnipr said:
First of all, as a member of the Boarding Team onboard another vessel I would not want to be covered with a weapon who's purpose is to provide grazing/supressing fire. This type of weapon would be alright to use until the team breaches the ship in question.

There are many issues that have to be looked at. For Example, how many people are experience shooting from a moving platform at a moving platform while creating your own head wind and while pitching and rolling? Not many if there is anyone around at all.

Currently there are a few Combat Shooting Teams around the Navy. The only people I would trust with accurately covering a team on another ship would be the senior members of these teams. The reason is that those senior members shoot extensively out to a distance of 500 meters with a C7A1 and out to a distance of 800 meters with a C3A1. I would not want someone who picks up a rifle one day a year to cover me on another vessel.

That being all said, .338 would be a nice addition to the ships SA locker, but .308 is all that really is required accomplish the job.

Okay, so this post above puts some of the technical and ballistic challenges in the proper light.

I have been searching the web for a weapon system that I saw on Marine Machines the other night when they were discussing FBE Juliete. I believe the weapon was  the LM Millenium Gun mounted on the SEA SLICE. There are a few details out there, but not many.

Forget the 35mm gun for a second ... what is the system name for the TA and FC components? In part of the show, this weapon system had acquired and recorded, as targets, crew members walking about the deck of a CPF [i have no idea which one it was]. Apparently, this system will dead ringer a human sized target at 1.5 kms at sea, and at night using FLIR.  From what I could tell, the FC system was an advanced mast mounted navalized version of the Arrowhead electro - optical fire control system found on the AH-64D.

Could this system be mated with some sort of navalized long barrelled sniper rifle with proper ammunition like the TAC .50?  What effect would sea level atmospheric pressure and the weightier sea wind have on the round?

Getting back to the 35mm, this FC system with this caliber of gun and the AHEAD munition would be perfect for the MCDV as well as the proposed OPV.  In fact, I think this package would be a wonderful secondary armament for the CPF in place of a couple of the .50 mounts if the room could be made for the "turret."

Cheers. 
 
whiskey601,

I gather that this system you speak of is a mounted weapons system that is fully controlled by below deck electronics. Sounds interesting but here are a few issues I'd have.

Although most modern naval weapons systems are quite sophistacted, I extremely doubt they have the ability to make a head shot from 1.5KM unless the seas are calm as glass. Ships have the ability to ascertain environmental data at their current position, but they can not determine pitch, roll and wave height of a ship at a distance of 1.5KM, to the best of my knowledge.

The best option would be to keep the distance between the ships while boarding around 200-300 Metres. As an avid shooter, I'd still want a "person" with a finger on the trigger of a bolt action, heavy barrel, .308/.338 sniper rifle. That shooter would be backed up by a seasoned spotter as well.



 
I would agree the shot would have to be taken from closer than 1500 meters. Without getting into OPSEC, I believe that the AH64D system controls the munition while in transit to the target - which might be the case for a 35mm round but unlikely for the smaller caliber required for a clean sniper shot.

*edit: and if what you mean by having the 'finger on the trigger", I assume this ties into the ability of a sharpshooter to "anticipate", which quite clearly a computerized FC system of this order would not be capable of.

I don't know where the controls are, but below decks seems reasonable for a ship, since the naval mount was quite small. 
 
This is definitely a topic that can be well debated, but there are a tonne of variables out on the ocean that can really throw a wrench into things!!
 
We went on several boardings where we were covered by a sniper in a helicopter. Once by an Italian and once by a French sniper.

Don't know about the stability of a helo compared to a ship. All I know is that it would take a hell of a talent to shoot accurately from a ship in any sort of a swell.
 
Too many people watched the Tom Berenger movie "Sniper" where he thought the guy made a shot from a Helo. In the movie, the shot actually came from the ground.

Most of all, I would imagine a helo used in that capacity would be more of an intimidation factor if anything...

The only successful sniper shot from a helo would be considered a real lucky shot.
 
Well, here is a passage with system names for the Millenium Gun:

"Weapons tested were to include the joint Lockheed Martin/Oerlikon Contraves 35mm Millenium Gun and the NetFires System and launcher, with a planned launch of the Lockheed Martin-developed Loitering Attack Munitions (LAM). A key to Sea SLICE's operation is a set of integrated sensors to manage its weapons and defense systems. These include a Lockheed Martin's Silent Sentry passive radar system and three optical systems that provide infrared, electro-optical and laser ranging capabilities. One such system is the Sea Star SAFIRE II (FLIR Systems, Inc., Portland, OR), which delivers long range, multi-sensor imaging via an advanced 3-5 mm lnSb focal plane array with 3 fields of view through a laser rangefinder, daylight TV, TV spotter scope, laser pointer and CALI laser illuminator. SAFIRE can be interfaced with radar, GPS, or fire control and can be removed or installed in under one hour, according to Lockheed, as a roll-on-roll-off asset. A second system is the SeaFLIR long-range FLIR system (FLIR Systems, Inc.), which is capable of contact identification close-in or to the horizon. Finally, Sea SLICE carries the MSP-500 Modular Sensor Platform (Lockheed Martin Naval Electronics & Surveillance Systems â “ Radar Systems, Akron, OH). The MSP is an integrated target detection and tracking system for the Millenium Gun. It contains a thermal imager with two fields of view, a CCD camera with zoom optics, an eye safe laser range finder, video tracker, and fire control console with joystick. It operates day/night and low-visibility conditions and integrates with other ship's systems. It can operate in passive mode while acquiring data for navigation and fire control; can track targets in azimuth, elevation and range; and accepts target indication from external sources such as radar. As with the other elements of Sea SLICE, it is modular in design and can be quickly installed or removed."


SeaStar SAFIREII from FLIR Systems Inc.r: http://www.flir.com/imaging/Maritime/Products/SeaStarSAFIREII.aspx

This promotional video on the SeaFLIR demonstrates that system's capabilities: http://www.flir.com/imaging/Maritime/Products/SeaFLIRII_video.aspx   

Looking for the MSP 500 from LM, will post when I find it.

Also, no mention of a ballistics computing device - this may be found in the MSP 500.



 
just another point- the .50 (ie Barrett) provides the ship with another accurate, mine counter measure. They can be used to sink floating mines. Granted the mounted browning .50 is also availabe, but the barrett, or other sniper rifle can be deployed by small boat.
 
I'll slip in a few comments here.

First, platform.   A good shot must come from a stable platform.   A helicopter or a small boat does not provide a stable platform.   Shots/hits from either would be considered lucky.   A Small boat would also be to low to provide good spotting, or targeting.   A support rifle/shooter/spotter should be setup on the "mother" ship, somewhere close to the command position so that positive control can be exercised, and so that information gleaned through the scope by the shooter/spotter can be passed quickly to command for decision making.   Also, should a "SHOOT" decision be made, the word would quickly get to the shooter.

Second, composition.   The Army has for decades used a Spotter/Sniper pair.   The two are inseperable, and depend on each other during a shoot.   The more important position, believe it or not, is the spotter.   Any dummy can pull a trigger.   Only a good spotter can effectively call wind, call fall of shot, watch sworl, mark followup targets, communicate.   The spotter makes the team several times more effective than just the shooter on his own would be.

I would suggest that teams of Spotters/Shooters be trained, and deployed with units that are going on boarding operations, and when they are done, that the teams be returned to Halifax to train and maintain their abilities.

Third, training.   The shooter and spotter need to be essentially interchangeable, since spending more than about 20 minutes peering through a scope will start to cause eye-strain.   The fact that there is not currently a program in place to train the bridge marksmen on ships is deplorable.   Many of them only fire their rifles over the side at the water, and the rifles have never been taken to a range to be properly zeroed.   The futility of this present situation should be reasonably obvious to anyone who's ever tried shooting at long ranges.

Fourth, present support.   The .50 M2 QCB is capable of precise fire, as demonstrated in various conflicts (such as Vietnam) where they have been scoped, and used as long range sniping weapons.   The shipboard mountings however, are not stable, and are not particulary well suited to accurate fire.   I have observed .50 teams unable to hit a weather baloon at less than 300 meters.   The boarding party would probably be in more danger from the .50's fire than helped by it.

Fifth, suitable caliber.   There is much debate on suitable calibers for sniping rifles, however, the 7.62mm is probably more suitable than the .338.   The .338 is BIG, HEAVY, EXPENSIVE, and the wear that it puts on a barrel is massive.   .338's have a tendancy to require barrel replacement at around 5000 rounds.   The cost of the rounds is high, so training would be limited, and the recoil would preclude fast followup shots, unless the shooter was extremely experienced at recoil management.  

The .338 is being considered for adoption in order to provide a medium range SWS for use between 800m and 1200m.   (Although capable of longer shots, that's the distance defined in the specs.)   Most boardings take place at a distance of less than 500m, and in fact, less than 300.   The extra range is not necessary for this application.   The additional penetration would be good, but at what cost to the effectiveness of the shooter?   I do not personally believe that the .338's extra penetration would be very beneficial.

In 7.62mm, there is a wealth of corporate knowledge in the use and performance of the cartridge, as well as there being many different types of rounds available (AP, SLAP, Tracer, Ball, Match, etc)   as well as the variety of firearms capable of firing the round is important to consider.   The recoil of a 7.62mm rifle is very manageable, allowing much faster followup shots should they be necessary.   The existance of semi-auto 7.62mm rifles makes this even better.  

The 7.62mm round is capable of effective fire out to 800m, and at normal boarding ranges, it is a very effective round.  

Sixth, rifle.   The use of a crew served platform or other such system is a good idea, however, there is a limit to what can be easily procured and placed on a ship.   There are already 7.62mm rifles in the system, along with the support for them in the Army.  

The rifle I would suggest would be an AR-10T or SR-25 type rifle.   This type of rifle is currently in use with some units, and are capable of effective aimed fire, with quick followup.   The optics rails are Return to Zero, so the scope can be removed, and replaced with a Night Vision optic allowing night surveillance.   This rifle is also very similar to the current issue C-7, allowing quicker cross-training, and there is some parts compatibility, however.

I would recommend against using a .50 cal rifle system, since again, we have to deal with the substantial recoil, and the cost of ammunition and training.    (There are training limits placed on the number of rounds that may be fired with a .50 rifle in a day.)

However, for all of this to become reality, the navy would have to recognize the limitations of the current system, and many consider it to be adequate.  

Unfortunately, the impetus to change this view would likely be a boarding gone wrong, and the fallout of that would be a re-vamping of the current support system for the boarding parties.

There are shooters in the Navy, mostly within the Shooting Teams (MARLANT CST and NCR CST) that have experience shooting at long ranges as NavalSniper points out.  I have a medal for winning a 600m Sniper match at CFSAC a few years back, NavalSniper was my spotter...we know a bit about long range shooting. 

I for one would hope that before something happens to a boarding party, the Navy finds a better means of protecting them than a .50 and an unzeroed C-7. 

NavyShooter

 
I for one would hope that before something happens to a boarding party, the Navy finds a better means of protecting them than a .50 and an unzeroed C-7. 

Hence my reasoning for the topic.
 
Back
Top