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Navy drones

Underway

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Eye In The Sky said:
If they were 'in significant numbers'...maybe?  I'd like to see more info on (1) how much of an area can a single unit monitor (2) what happens with the data it is receiving (someone has to do analysis...where is that done and who is doing it).

It is going to have to broadcast the data somehow...if the opposing force knows there is a field of these things around a certain area, then it is performing the same function as a minefield really (something to go around). 

They have some cap's, no doubt but we are pretty thin on ASW as it is;  I'd invest in other assets before dropping dollars on this (we simply don't have the budget we need now, let alone adding systems like this in place).  :2c:

I think at this time they are still proving the concept.  If they can get it to do 2000nm and/or have 3 months endurance then the thoughts on sensors come into play.  Perhaps a new system that has room for sensors.  Last sail off the coast of Syria has really shown me the light on how useful this would be.  Combined with MPA, shipborne helo etc... those tight quarter waters would make things much more difficult for a DE sub to hide.

A persistent unseen sensor is invaluable.
 

Sub_Guy

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The UUV would be good for detecting mines.

Detecting subs?  I am not sold, not yet.  Would the UUV utilize auto-detect software?  If so it would have to have an on-board database of both friendly and enemy assets.  Would it utilize active or passive detection?  Active sonar would be tricky because the UUV could inadvertently give away friendly the position of friendly subs (as well as the position of the UUV).  “Ping-stealing” is a thing and it is very effective.  Also active sonar can’t distinguish between friend or foe.

Without a doubt Russia and China would do anything in their power to capture one of these, which would be easy.  If the UUV had a database of ASW assets, it would be even more attractive.

As much as industry wants to push/sell auto-detect/auto-classify software, humans still need to be in the analysis chain.

I feel that our SOSUS network combined with the strategic placement of underwater assets sufficient enough for undersea monitoring.

The last thing I want is another asset sending me off chasing Poss-low contacts.  The navy does that more than enough.  I know that is part of the job, but sometimes it does get a little ridiculous.   







 

Colin Parkinson

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Underway said:
Well the way I look at it is they loiter, and move about slowly in a specific area.  Then when they detect something interesting they call you EITS to come and do a more "detailed analysis".  Intelligence gathering UUV is a valuable asset, esp underwater.

UAV fly's.  I assume that was just a typo!  ;D  Indian Arm is a great place to do that sort of work.

Sorry should have been AUV which is civy world talk. UUV sounds like it should be a birth control device....
 

daftandbarmy

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Colin P said:
Sorry should have been AUV which is civy world talk. UUV sounds like it should be a birth control device....

If it was armed with a good sized warhead, it would be a good birth control device :)
 

Underway

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So HMCS TORONTO is undergoing a minor refit right now.  The purpose is to remove the Stbd Torp magazine and tubes and replace them with an RPA/UAS repair/storage space.  There will also be a new RPA control system added. 

Anyone have any info on this?  Not sure where the control system is going but I fear the loss of another CSE space...  From what I understand it's going to be a multifunctional UAS/USV space where multiple types of remote vehicles can be control from, (Puma, SKELDAR, Snyper and Hammerhead).  However my fix is a rather large cocked hat on this.

As for impact to the ship, halving the number of tubes and torps carried doesn't seem like that much of a big deal in the tradeoff to have UAS organic capability.  Especially with the new Mk 54 Torps which have massively improved lethality and programing.  Organic UAS capability is something that will be used all the time, every day with a massive impact on situational awareness and maritime picture compilation.  As well all the training improvements with the remote piloted targets one can use.
 

NavyShooter

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Underway said:
So HMCS TORONTO is undergoing a minor refit right now.  The purpose is to remove the Stbd Torp magazine and tubes and replace them with an RPA/UAS repair/storage space.  There will also be a new RPA control system added. 

Anyone have any info on this?  Not sure where the control system is going but I fear the loss of another CSE space...  From what I understand it's going to be a multifunctional UAS/USV space where multiple types of remote vehicles can be control from, (Puma, SKELDAR, Snyper and Hammerhead).  However my fix is a rather large cocked hat on this.

As for impact to the ship, halving the number of tubes and torps carried doesn't seem like that much of a big deal in the tradeoff to have UAS organic capability.  Especially with the new Mk 54 Torps which have massively improved lethality and programing.  Organic UAS capability is something that will be used all the time, every day with a massive impact on situational awareness and maritime picture compilation.  As well all the training improvements with the remote piloted targets one can use.


No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan. 


If you're interested, have a look a the writeup I did a few years ago in the Marine Engineering Journal proposing exactly this, only to enable installation of a 120mm AMOS turret on the Stbd Mezz deck to enable NGFS.



 

Eye In The Sky

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NavyShooter said:
No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan. 


If you're interested, have a look a the writeup I did a few years ago in the Marine Engineering Journal proposing exactly this, only to enable installation of a 120mm AMOS turret on the Stbd Mezz deck to enable NGFS.

Is there a link for this, by any chance, you can post here or PM?
 

Sub_Guy

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Page 3

http://www.cntha.ca/static/documents/mej/mej-70.pdf

 

Underway

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NavyShooter said:
No idea on exact details, but I'd be surprised if they pulled the tubes out - more likely to just pull the racks and leave the crane/tubes in place, then it's only a loss of torpedo storage, not launcher capability.  Dump a dozen torps, sustain the launch capability on both sides, while still having torps for aircraft carry, and adding this space?  Good plan. 

Consider yourself surprised then.  Everything is coming out of the space, the tubes, the HP air flask, the crane, the racks.  Down to studs.  TOR may be doing their next deployment with an organic RPA/UAS capability by the looks of things. 

I wonder if the SKELDAR V-200 is able to fit into that space/be moved in and out of that space.  It's only 1.3m tall and about 4m long.  Certainly can't be done while a Cyclone is embarked in the hangar.
 

Underway

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Further info as I was digging a bit before hurricane bunkering takes effect.

The RPA is called the Gargoyle which is really the RCN version of the SKELDAR V-200 that includes the AESA radar.  The maintenance and stowage of the system will be in the stbd torp magazine and the control stations will take over either all or part of the current CSE Tech Office (due to various technical reasons...).  Where the CSE Chief and PO1's are going to end up is still a topic for debate.

Not sure if the entire fleet is going to have this refit but I suspect that TOR is just the first.  There is certainly a debate to be had on the capability loss and gain with this change.
 

Good2Golf

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daftandbarmy said:
Are the drones interactive in any way with the rotary wing folks?

Not sure the Navy’s intentions, but MUMT (Manned - Ummanned Teaming)has been operational at advanced levels in the US Army for at least half a decade.  It started just pulling FMV down from UAS to helos, both TCDL and non-TCDL compatible, and more recently with enhanced functionality that augments control of the UAS itself.  The RCN is most likely looking at how MUMT could fit in between CH-148 and Skeldar platforms.

Regards
G2G

 

Cloud Cover

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reading the company’s literature, this seems to be a really big bump in capability, especially in the littoral if the ship puts SF ashore.

It looks like some small masts and antennas will be installed as well.
 

daftandbarmy

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Good2Golf said:
Not sure the Navy’s intentions, but MUMT (Manned - Ummanned Teaming)has been operational at advanced levels in the US Army for at least half a decade.  It started just pulling FMV down from UAS to helos, both TCDL and non-TCDL compatible, and more recently with enhanced functionality that augments control of the UAS itself.  The RCN is most likely looking at how MUMT could fit in between CH-148 and Skeldar platforms.

Regards
G2G

'My brain hurts.' Mr. Gumby  :surrender:
 

dimsum

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daftandbarmy said:
'My brain hurts.' Mr. Gumby  :surrender:

Summary:  It went from the end user just seeing the video, to having them be able to (somewhat) control the UAV itself.

That would be an awesome capability for the RCN.  I'd do it...if it was Remote Split Ops in Victoria/Halifax* and I didn't have to sail all the time  :nod:

* Maybe less so with Halifax, with Dorian barrelling down on it right now.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Dimsum said:
Summary:  It went from the end user just seeing the video, to having them be able to (somewhat) control the UAV itself.

That would be an awesome capability for the RCN.  I'd do it...if it was Remote Split Ops in Victoria/Halifax* and I didn't have to sail all the time  :nod:

* Maybe less so with Halifax, with Dorian barrelling down on it right now.

Come back to the dark side. We have soup...at 10.  ;D
 

dimsum

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SeaKingTacco said:
Come back to the dark side. We have soup...at 10.  ;D

Yeah, but the quality of hotels just isn't the same  ;)
 

ModlrMike

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Sailors. We prefer to call them sailors. Drones is so...... impersonal.
 
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