Navy to consider gender-neutral ranks

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But you’re offending people by calling them “ordinary” !

Hamish, I can tell you that there are many PO's and above that consider it offensive for some ratings to be branded "able".  ;D

 

[MarkOttawa]

Conclusion of a post at Thin Pinstriped Line on RN's planning to redo ranks:

"Its an Able Seamans World' - Why the RN is right to change its language.
...
Why not make small linguistic changes that help show its about attracting 100% of the workforce to feel welcomed and valued, and why not change in such a way that means everyone feels they have a fair chance of a good career – not be forced to make decisions that their male counterparts don’t have to make about what their priorities are?

There will be those who think this is all about wokeness – its not – its about listening to our people and reflecting their views. We wouldn’t tolerate job titles that were racially abusive, we wouldn’t tolerate a career system that penalised people because of the colour of their skin, so why do we tolerate it for gender?

The modern world is changing rapidly, gender has quickly moved from being a fairly binary thing to something more complex and evolving and where naval personnel can and do identify in a variety of ways. It is important that the Royal Navy recognises that to the next generation of recruits, this is something that matters in the same way as internet access, being treated with respect and being listened to, and if they feel that they won’t get that, then they will probably look elsewhere.

If you want to help make a difference then little changes do help – think about using non gender words like headcount or personnel rather than manpower. Don’t be afraid to appropriately challenge inappropriate ‘banter’ if you hear it, and do try to actively support groups like the Naval Women’s Network, who are doing great work to help ensure that women are genuinely treated as equals in the modern Royal Navy.

If you think the next generation are snowflakes hellbent on ruining the military, then please reflect on the images emerging from the fire on the USS Bonhomme Richard this week. The firefighters willingly going into this hellish inferno were young, talented and often female – every bit the fighting sailor that their predecessors were.
https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2020/07/its-able-seamans-world-why-rn-is-right.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[medicineman]

Hamish, I can tell you that there are many PO's and above that consider it offensive for some ratings to be branded "able".  ;D

And we all know PO's/CPO's that fit broadly into the definition of "Petty" as well...yeah I know it's an Anglicized "Petit", but the ones that take after the English word.  In fact, used to have to butt heads with many of them in Esquimalt on a daily, if not hourly, basis.

MM

 

[Walt]

I would appreciate the opinion of female forum members regarding this issue. Perhaps Army Vern & Beyond the Now are willing to respond. With respect,

Walt

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I would appreciate the opinion of female forum members regarding this issue. Perhaps Army Vern & Beyond the Now are willing to respond. With respect,

Walt

I’d thought about adding a comment earlier, but ended up reading other things. I’m not Navy and I’ve never been posted in a Navy environment. (I have several friends/acquintances who are, but that’s about it as far as exposure goes.) I think there are certain thoughts/feelings strictly surrounding Navy tradition, culture and thinking that I really don’t understand, so I rarely feel I can contribute.

That being said, I’m personally not offended or in any way put-off by the title of Seaman. None of my Navy friends, males and females, have ever had an issue either that I’m aware of. But there are obviously those who don’t feel the same—I just don’t personally know any. So if it’s a change that the Navy feels needs to be made it’ll just be a matter of getting used to it. For new recruits coming in after the change has been implemented, it won’t be a big deal. But for any already in, it’s going to take some adjustment. Heck, the simple Pte to Avr still isn’t being properly recorded and used in all instances after More than 5yrs and we already know how ‘clerk’ has been working out...

 

[Walt]

BTN,

Thank you for the courtesy of your response.

Walt

 

[orca73]

I would appreciate the opinion of female forum members regarding this issue. Perhaps Army Vern & Beyond the Now are willing to respond. With respect,

Walt

Being a female in the Navy for 29+ years, I think things are going way to far on the crazy. The Navy has fought for a while to return to the traditional ranks (executive curls) and was planning to return to the old junior ranks badges. Next rank that will have to be changed is the Army rank of Private because someone will take offense as it could be construed as a sexual term. Society is going way to far into the "I'm offend, everything must change because I has said so"/s.  It is becoming so bad that our species is becoming offended at everything, everyone for simply breathing. Even if there was one person alive - they would be offended because they are alone. 
  ullhair:

 

[Walt]

Thank you Orca73 for taking the time to post. All the best,

Walt

 

[dimsum]

Conclusion of a post at Thin Pinstriped Line on RN's planning to redo ranks:

Mark
Ottawa

Well said.  Traditions change.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Well said.  Traditions change.

Perhaps its not that traditions change, because, well that would mean losing the tradition part of the word tradition no ?  But perhaps they die out.  Or are not relevant any further.

 

[torg003]

Strange, for some reason I thought the RN had already gotten rid of the "seaman" rank title and only used Able Rate and Leading Rate.  I guess that was wrong (according to the article).

 

[Lumber]

My recommendations, in order from. OS to MS:
Sailor
Salt
Killick
Master (or Senior) Killick

 

[Navy_Pete]

Strange, for some reason I thought the RN had already gotten rid of the "seaman" rank title and only used Able Rate and Leading Rate.  I guess that was wrong (according to the article).

They got used conversationally when I was over there for training about 10 years ago, but wasn't official. I don't know if Killick was ever official, but that was still used regularly (but usually when talking about the rank, not when talking to a specific person).

 

[Halifax Tar]

They got used conversationally when I was over there for training about 10 years ago, but wasn't official. I don't know if Killick was ever official, but that was still used regularly (but usually when talking about the rank, not when talking to a specific person).

I have heard the term permeating in the RCN recently as well.  For instance on FRE right now, the JRs mess is often refered too as the Jr rates mess.  I dont know how this happened or where its come from, but it seems to have taken some hold. 

 

[Stoker]

Interestingly enough of the over 2000 survey's done so far, only 14% want the status quo.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Interestingly enough of the over 2000 survey's done so far, only 14% want the status quo.

That might be a matter of interpretation of the question and how to answer though.

“1.Instead of 'Seaman', what would you prefer?“

The wording is intimating that leaving things ‘as is’ simply isn’t an option. “Instead of Seaman...” being the focal point.

 

[Stoker]

That might be a matter of interpretation of the question and how to answer though.

“1.Instead of 'Seaman', what would you prefer?“

The wording is intimating that leaving things ‘as is’ simply isn’t an option. “Instead of Seaman...” being the focal point.

Actually it is, it gives you the option to leave comments. The RCN Chief has also said on social media that all options is on the table. The majority of I people I know have no problem with the change or wants something other that what is listed.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Actually it is, it gives you the option to leave comments. The RCN Chief has also said on social media that all options is on the table. The majority of I people I know have no problem with the change or wants something other that what is listed.

As Dangerboy posted (reply 103) yes, there’s an “other” field under question #1, and an “other” field under rank identifier, but I see nowhere indicating open feedback/comment is welcomed on the link.

In any case, it’s a plausible argument that it’s possible some who completed the simple 2 questions weren’t altogether aware that feedback related to anything else other than the options listed was a possibility. I’m not saying the numbers would’ve been drastically different, but I am reasonably suggesting that pers stuck to what was there.

 

[Furniture]

That might be a matter of interpretation of the question and how to answer though.

%u201C1.Instead of 'Seaman', what would you prefer?%u201C

The wording is intimating that leaving things %u2018as is%u2019 simply isn%u2019t an option. %u201CInstead of Seaman...%u201D being the focal point.

I agree. To me it almost seemed geared very much like the referendum to decide the name of the municipality that became Thunder Bay.

A quick reference for those not in the know. https://www.torontomike.com/2015/06/the_naming_of_thunder_bay.html#:~:text=One%20story%20was%20about%20the%20naming%20of%20Thunder,seemed%20as%20if%20%22Lakehead%22%20would%20carry%20the%20day.

Divide the opposition to your chosen name by offering alternatives that are either unpalatable or so similar as to split the vote. How many "other" options are worded closely enough one another to qualify as a single voting option vice those worded sufficiently different to count as individual options?

To be clear, I voted "sailor" as I expect change is coming one way or another, so it's best to choose the "lesser of two weevils" as Lucky Jack would say.

 

[Old Sweat]

No guts to try boat person.