NCM Prgression

[jollyjacktar]

H Tar, not to worry.  I have known you for years and you will do fine as I mentioned when we met for coffee.  Sure there is some trepidation with the unknown and a new position and situation.  Don't fret, you will grow into feeling comfortable in your new skin.  I experienced the same when I was on the threshold as well.  You are professional and worthy of the move.  I am sure that you will go far by the time the race is run and you are an old fart like me. 

 

[Pat in Halifax]

dapaterson:
That may have happenned and probably shouldn't have but going the other way, I have yet to hear of a Corporal being "promoted" to Sgt. In fact I have yet to see any admin order or directive refer to a MS/MCpl using a term other than 'rank'.
As for all the comments about the 'weak' MS/MCpl: if a MS is weak, then a supervisor somewhere f***ed up. Come on people, take ownership for your own inadequacies. CFPAS is there for a reason and if it is necessary to do a weekly PDR on a problem child then that is your duty as a supervisor. Yes, there are some well beyond guidance but the majority come around eventually. I look back on shiny new (and needing 'guidance') MS I knew years ago and they are coming up on their QL6 course now as mature leaders and mentors to subordinates.
Remember for some of the older folk here, we were all that gangly new uncomfortable junior rank before and we had our mentors who 'guided' us.
"I couldn't even spell eng-gineer and now I are one!!!!"

 

[dapaterson]

In fact I have yet to see any admin order or directive refer to a MS/MCpl using a term other than 'rank'.

Which, is part, why you need PLQ - to learn to read the damned regulations, so you can properly lead and mentor your subordinates and provide them with accurate information, not misinformed opinions.

QR&O 3.01 lists no such rank as Master Seaman or Master Corporal.  QR&O 3.08, on the other hand, says the following:

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT

(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.

(2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.

(3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals.

(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.

(M)

 

[blacktriangle]

So very true.

Unfortunately, this is not the case in many instances.  They are a result of a Trade being so short of Jnr and Snr leaders, that they have promoted whomever they could find that had a pulse, in order to beef up their numbers.  I think this is where the real problem started.

EDIT: Sorry for going off topic George, I should have been more specific.

I was only speaking to the push for bodies in certain trades, regardless of performance etc. The people I had in mind when I typed that reply are in fact now through their recruit (and god forbid) their trades training. Give it a few years and they will be getting the same A/L promotions with even less ability, just to fill a gap.

 

[George Wallace]

popnfresh

This has nothing to do with the CFRC recruiters.  The examples given are of people who have already made it into the system.  They have already been through Recruit School and Trades Trg. 

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Fair enough, I stand corrected; There is indeed an order addressing this exact question. Believe me, I have had PLQ (equivalent) and more. Read paras 3 and 4 of 3.08. Without actually saying it, does that not define the word "rank" ?  I think we are leaning too much to the political correctness side of the house. Further on (3.09), it also says an Officer has seniority over all NCMs. Based on this, what do you think would be the outcome of a brand new A/SLt giving the Cox'n an order? I really don't want to dwell on this. From the perspective of EVERY NCM, MS/MCpl is a rank, a 'stage' that one must go through to make it to PO2/Sgt. So, fine, let's agree to disagree about what is termed a rank and what in reality is, indeed a rank and get this back on track. That poor young fella who posed the original question got a face full from all of us!
If you'd like to push this, I am willing to stick my neck out for 'the team' and the next time one of my LS is being promoted, I will, indeed quote your reference and DEMAND he recieve his PO2s. I'll let you know how that one goes over!!(Depending on my demeanour, it may be from a cell!!!)

 

[Occam]

Which, is part, why you need PLQ - to learn to read the damned regulations, so you can properly lead and mentor your subordinates and provide them with accurate information, not misinformed opinions.

QR&O 3.01 lists no such rank as Master Seaman or Master Corporal.  QR&O 3.08, on the other hand, says the following:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. 

Yes, the QR&O says the rank of MS/MCpl is an appointment.  I used to correct people all the time on the subject, until I realized one day that I was telling them something that they already knew, but really didn't care about. 

The problem is not misinformed opinions.  The problem is that many of us have done that JLC/PLQ course and been MS/MCpl, and other than the distinction that you've made about the punishment of reduction in rank, few of us really care that it's an appointment.  The dictionary definition of promotion is "advancement in rank or position", which does describe the appointment to MS/MCpl.

Telling us that there is no such rank as MCpl flies in the face of all logic, when we've spent countless opportunities inserting MCpl into the "Rank" field on leave forms, PERs, and every other type of document you can imagine.  We also see it in official policy, such as the annual message for CFRP that tells us that one of the prerequisites is to be the minimum rank of MCpl.

So, to the overwhelming majority of servicemembers, one is promoted to MS/MCpl - an elevation of position, if not actual rank by the book.  The pedantic can keep preaching that it's an appointment, but only those who are ever sentenced to the punishment of reduction in rank will ever really be listening.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Hear Here!!!! And with that, I can enjoy my "Welfare Wednesday" lunch up at the Mess today!
Why can't everyone just get along! (Of course if they did, the bulk of the contributors to this web site would be out of work!)