NCM-SEP Med Tech career path

[Blackadder1916]

I'll weigh in.  IMO, every medical trade should be posted to an Army base as their first posting which generally means a Fd Amb.  This allows them to learn the Army way of doing things, field craft,  soldier skills, etc, in addition to time in the medical clinic.  As much field time as possible, keeping in mind a reasonable sea:shore ratio.  Notice that I mention "in addition to time in the medical clinic", meaning those first few years should not be spent only folding canvas and DI'ing vehicles in the Fd Amb bays, nor should they be exclusively clinical. 

It is far easier for someone with some time in the Army to go to a Navy or Air Force environment, including overseas deployments, than vice versa.  After your first 3 years at a Fd Amb, then anywhere in Canada should be open.  I will now don my protective garments for the anticipated rebuttal. ;D

Why would you anticipate a rebuttal?  At least from anyone who has any experience.  Anyone who doesn't agree with your conclusions are (IMO) not familiar with the organization and requirements of Canadian military medicine.

 

[Armymedic]

I agree with Blackadder. No rebuttal. I agree. Your thoughts are conceptionally correct.

The reason it does not happen that way is 2 fold:

1. every base/clinic/medical facility needs the QL 3 Pte to do the scut work, i.e. medical prelims, basic amb taskings etc.
2. Posting a QL 5 Cpl cost more, therefor it is more economical to post people to the location where they can be employed for 5-8 years on their very first posting from QL3.


Not to insult civilian paramedics like mariomike; but everyone must remember that the very basic level of training and competency we expect from our junior medics QL3 is the same as what most civilian EMT organizations have. Even the more advanced level of AEC for QL5 is the minimum level of training we expect Cpls to achieve. Everyone is expected to grow both clinically and professionally from those basic levels of medical competence.

 

[mariomike]

Not to insult civilian paramedics like mariomike; but everyone must remember that the very basic level of training and competency we expect from our junior medics QL3 is the same as what most civilian EMT organizations have.

Highlight mine - mm.

None taken, Rider Pride.
I am not familiar with the laws of other provinces. I only worked in Ontario.

Ambulance Act of Ontario:
5.  (1)  The operator of a land ambulance service shall not employ a person to provide patient care, whether on a full-time or part-time basis, or engage a person to provide patient care as a full-time volunteer, unless the person is a paramedic who,

(a) obtained, before January 1, 2002, the qualifications of an emergency medical care assistant referred to in subsection 7 (3); or

(b) holds the qualifications of an advanced emergency medical care assistant referred to in subsection 7 (4). O. Reg. 229/02, s. 1.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_000257_e.htm#BK3

No AEMCA = no job. Not even as a volunteer.

"...CF QL5 Med Tech as meeting the PCP requirements to challenge the AEMCA exam...":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/hp-ps/mcsp-pmcc/aemca-eng.asp

 

[medicineman]

The big issue is getting clinical experience when you're being used and abused as nothing but an oil or stores monkey.  I have one young guy working for me that spent his career at 1CFH before arriving here and had been done an ENORMOUS disservice by getting to and beyond his QL5 with next to no clinical experience...he's playing alot of catch up right now.  IMHO, we need to go back to doing formal QL4 courses for med techs that get posted to Fd Ambs, to make the units cough them up and get them into a clinical situation so they don't look at you like a 4 headed alien when you ask them to screen a patient with a cold, forget something more complex.

:2c:

MM

 

[BorderMedic]

Okay so I may be to the point of asking dumb questions now, but I still need a small amount of clarification. I get part of the order.

NCM SEP Medtech (me)

1) CMA Accredited PCP program (recognized by the CF)
2) BMQ
3) SQ
4) Borden for field/clinic phase? is this the 16 weeks?
5) I then get posted to a clinic to do the 18 months of skills (MCSP)? Does anybody know the common bases where one would go to do this step?
6) Then receive a posting to go to a base where I start my career so to speak?

And as for Clinic vs Field, my main interest is medicine, and that being said it does not mean that I am in any way against working on and maintaining equipment. I do all my own car repairs including swapping out transmissions, clutches, and a motor once. and have done plenty of work on ambulances from my previous job as well. But I do want my main focus to be medically based.

 

[Cansky]

Okay so I may be to the point of asking dumb questions now, but I still need a small amount of clarification. I get part of the order.

NCM SEP Medtech (me)

1) CMA Accredited PCP program (recognized by the CF)
2) BMQ
3) SQ
4) Borden for field/clinic phase? is this the 16 weeks? 
5) I then get posted to a clinic to do the 18 months of skills (MCSP)? Does anybody know the common bases where one would go to do this step?
6) Then receive a posting to go to a base where I start my career so to speak?

And as for Clinic vs Field, my main interest is medicine, and that being said it does not mean that I am in any way against working on and maintaining equipment. I do all my own car repairs including swapping out transmissions, clutches, and a motor once. and have done plenty of work on ambulances from my previous job as well. But I do want my main focus to be medically based.

Clinical is about 16 weeks, field is 2-3 weeks so total almost 20 weeks.  Keep in mind this could be over a period of 6 or more months depending on course availability.  You won't be loaded on either of these courses until BMQ and SQ are completed. Due to if you are unsuccessful or get re-coursed then positions on these courses aren't lost.

I'm not sure what you are referring to about 18 months MCSP.  Usually you are posted upon completion of the field phase of QL 3 course and then work at what ever unit you are posted to.  During this time you should be working on your MCSP.  Maybe someone at unit outside the school can clarify this more. 

Being posted to a field unit isn't just about tents, exercise and changing oil.  Its also being part of a field ambulance.  Opportunities to work at a clinic can and should be provided however as mentioned the experience as a soldier gained here will make you a better clinician further down the road.  Not to say that the clinical only medics aren't good, just a good chunk of the petty medics have significant field time under there belts.  You don't want to go to a field unit as a MCpl or higher expected to lead and pass on knowledge to troops without this experience.  Its is significantly more difficult for these pers (not all but a good portion)  Go to a field unit as a Pte get excellent experience and learn with a open mind will help you as a future leader if or when you get there.

 

[Armymedic]

And as for Clinic vs Field, my main interest is medicine, and that being said it does not mean that I am in any way against working on and maintaining equipment. I do all my own car repairs including swapping out transmissions, clutches, and a motor once. and have done plenty of work on ambulances from my previous job as well. But I do want my main focus to be medically based.

I am a PA, completely "medically" based. I still worry about making sure that my trucks are good to go, and my shelves are stocked.

You want to be a medic, part for the job is to be on the truck; in the CF if you drive the truck, you clean the truck, you check the truck, you maintain the truck. If you are on a boat, you clean your sick bay, you maintain your sickbay. If you are in a clinic, you check the stock shelves, you check the equipment, you restock the shelves.

You know who does that work? I can safely say it isnt the PA Warrant Officer like Kirsten or myself. Its you, the brand new Pte QL3 Med Tech.
Don't start whining about the critical support jobs that need to be done by you to be able to provide care to our soldiers even before you get into the CF.

 

[BorderMedic]

Don't start whining about the critical support jobs that need to be done by you to be able to provide care to our soldiers even before you get into the CF.

Really?

So in my last post when I said "it does not mean that I am in any way against working on and maintaining equipment" what I meant was that in any way shape or form I am not personally against cleaning, stocking, maintaining, or even fixing the equipment that I need to. Much like the ambulances that I have cleaned, stocked, maintained, and even fixed while I worked on them.

I simply wanted to know which environment if any, provided a better chance to hone the necessary skills to become an excellent medic. For our troops.

 

[PMed]

I was posted to a clinic right after my QL3 and at that time Fd Ambs were all about folding sections of mod and DI'ing vehicles and so I felt I "got lucky".  These days medics have even more training and from what I can tell, Fd Ambs aren't only about oil changes and a-frames.  I see medics getting out there doing medical based training as well as learning about the field environment, not to mention the exercises, deployments, etc.  Is one better than the other, I don't know, I would imagine that it depends on the individual and the posting.  But then again, I'm a PMed Tech *toot*toot* so I don't really care as long as those I deal with are knowledgeable in their field and competent, which has nothing to do with where you are posted.

 

[BorderMedic]

I thank you for the educated response. When I joined, being in the field was where my heart was at, I loved working out on the ambulances in civi land and didn't think I would like being in a clinic as much. But when pretty much every post about Fd Ambs and starting out new says that you get no medical time well then I feel like I may have to rethink my approach. But if the Fd Ambs is providing more medical training than first indicated then sign me up for that, I love being outside, and working with people. I just didn't want to get stuck somewhere with no medical progress, overall I would like to keep training and eventually go for a PA as well.

 

[Armymedic]

I simply wanted to know which environment if any, provided a better chance to hone the necessary skills to become an excellent medic. For our troops.

Then go to a Fd Amb.

Its called "paying your dues". Either you pay them up front or you get burned paying them later. There is a very simple reason young QL3 Pte Med Techs get sent to Fd Ambs. Its cause you can't do much of anything medical without direct and constant supervision, except work on an ambulance. And the opportunity to do more (i.e. operational tours, MCSP, courses) is presented most frequently at the Fd Ambs.

edit to add: BTW, to end this discussion; you'll go where the career manager tells you, because as a QL3, you get very little to no say as to where your first posting will be.

 

[BorderMedic]

Then go to a Fd Amb.

Its called "paying your dues".

I am fully aware of what paying your dues means, I'm not sure at which point during my posts that you decided I was trying to get away without having to start at the bottom. But if you take the time to read back there are a number of post that say that the Fd Ambs Pte's do little to no medical training while the clinic bound one's do, so I would think that you would have to appreciate my inquiry as to which one may provide more medical training.... Heck even just three post ago SMRT can be quoted as saying that he felt he "got lucky" to be posted to a clinic. Now thankfully he also goes on to say that the medics in the field seem to be receiving more medical training which I am very excited about and also that its good to get the field training in early instead of later. Yet another tidbit of information that I think weighs in nicely on the topic, and something I did not think of.

I am curious now though, did you join as a med tech? and work towards your PA? and did you start with a Fd Ambs or clinic?

 

[Armymedic]

15 yrs as medic. First 2yrs in Fd Amb as both amb crew and med det. Then just before my QL 5, posted into the UMS/CDU's, with the exception of 2 yrs back to Fd Amb as a MCpl Det Comd. The off to PA course.

Things are not at all the same as they were before, and SMRT's example does not define that for you either. MCSP, sim centers, operational tours for QL3's and the change from medics being posted to units vs being administered by central medical units in the last eight years has negated any difference between "field" and "clinic". Bonus, you get paid more to be in a Fd Amb, thanks (for now) to Land Duty Allowance.


Discussion is mute because as I said before:

You'll go where the career manager tells you, because as a QL3, you get very little to no say as to where your first posting will be.

 

[BorderMedic]

I thank you for your answers, but I do disagree that the discussion is mute, I was inquiring into which one was better for your medical career. Not which one I would get to choose, and thanks to answers from yourself and others most of the "bad things" that I always hear about Fd Ambs turn out to be not really so "bad" at all.

I know full well that I have very little choice where my wife and I will be sent, and we both look forward to getting posted anywhere they send us. On a side note I would love to hear what you think of the PA course and about being a PA? it is long term goal of mine.

 

[CombatDoc]

Then go to a Fd Amb.

Its called "paying your dues". Either you pay them up front or you get burned paying them later. There is a very simple reason young QL3 Pte Med Techs get sent to Fd Ambs. Its cause you can't do much of anything medical without direct and constant supervision, except work on an ambulance. And the opportunity to do more (i.e. operational tours, MCSP, courses) is presented most frequently at the Fd Ambs.

Rider Pride has provided some excellent advice.  For example, on the current Roto deployed to Afghanistan the majority of the Med Techs come from 5e Amb de c (aka 5 Fd Amb).  They account for around 75-80% of the medics, with the rest coming from units across Canada which include 1 Fd Amb and 2 Fd Amb.  By far the smallest number come from CF Health Service Centres (i.e. clinics).  My example may be partially skewed by the unique language requirements of a Franco tour, but goes to show that if you want to deploy, go to a Fd Amb which is usually going to be the force generator for operations.

The PCP qualification has really "levelled the playing field" for Reg Force QL3 and reserve QL4 Med Techs, allowing them to operate Outside the Wire in a manner that would not have been possible 10 years ago.  The corollary is our concern over how to best employ these folks in a clinic setting once they return from deployment.  IMO, the CDU concept makes it challenging to fully employ Med Techs as clinicians and the temptation is for them to be given the scut jobs.

 

[Armymedic]

I thank you for your answers, but I do disagree that the discussion is mute, I was inquiring into which one was better for your medical career.

What is best for your military career as well as your medical career, is not where you are posted, but how well you perform when you are there.

 

[BorderMedic]

I agree, and now that I understand a bit more about both environments I am rather excited about being sent to a Fd Ambs if thats what happens. My main fear was not practicing any medicine and loosing what I have learned already, and after reading on this forum for a little while I started to get that impression about being in the field and wanted to know if that was really true. It seems it isn't really true now and thats good.

I suppose depending on where I get posted I could always do some civi part time shifts on an ambulance service just to help stay sharp as well, if time permits of course.

 

[mariomike]

I suppose depending on where I get posted I could always do some civi part time shifts on an ambulance service just to help stay sharp as well, if time permits of course.

Assuming you receive licensure from the provincial regulator of where you wish to work, there are some concerns to be aware of. To avoid a conflict of interest, ask your potential part-time employer ( also check the Ambulance Act and collective agreement ) about mandated "emergency overtime" ( by definition,  everything  in EMS is an "emergency" ), "end of shift overtime", "call back", "standby" "change of shift", "change of station" and my least favorite, "change of vacation". However, I must say that the situation has improved greatly over the way things used to be.
The ones who get hit hardest are still those with the lowest seniority. I would assume that would include part-timers.

That is, one of the reasons, why the city I worked for has never hired part-timers. Under municipal law, their definition of "civilian" excludes members sworn into the emergency services.
( Although I know rural Ontario relies heavily on part-timers. )

 

[BorderMedic]

The PCP program I am currently enrolled in is CMA accredited which from what I understand allows me to license in other provinces a little easier than before. For Ontario I will still need to test for my license, but there are less hoops to jump through to get to that point.

As for finding a service, it of course is completely based on where I am posted, there are also private services if I am unable to find a municipal one to work with, I have asked around a bit and have heard of a few Med Techs that do the same.

 

[Cansky]

Remember if you wish to moonlight outside the CF you MUST have your CO's approval.  There are QR&O's that regulate this.  I would ask when you arrive at you first unit.  Most units do have a MCSP program set up for you to do amb ride along time.  This is not a paid benefit meaning the civi service is not paying you above you CF pay.