New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Colin Parkinson]

I think they are a copy of the US CG design for escort and harbour protection, they take some surf and waves, generally the crews wear our before the boat does.

 

[jollyjacktar]

What we've acquired, Colin, are USCG boats.  Gently used, only on Sunday, by a careful, paranoid, little old lady.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I have my doubts too.

NAVRES pers were certainly given ammunition and ROE's when the two Harbour Defence Units were stood up after 9/11 to protect ships in Halifax and Esquimalt. Similarly, they were given ammo and ROE's for the Vancouver Olympics, even if they operated under a cadre of reg force personnel.

I can certainly attest to the fact that we were armed, carried ammunition and given ROE's when we participated in OP SALON (the Oka crisis).

However, outside these particular operations, when NAVRES personnel is on the water, it's for training or exercises. Why on earth would you carry live ammunition for that?

I'm pretty certain that, when the new "reinforcement" FP team of NAVRES personnel deploys oversea to actually do its job, they will be given ammunition and ROE's. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What we've acquired, Colin, are USCG boats.  Gently used, only on Sunday, by a careful, paranoid, little old lady.

Considering the average age of US Coasties and being given a fast boat, I doubt that very, very much. A lot people have 2 speeds only in these boats, stop and fast. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Considering the average age of US Coasties and being given a fast boat, I doubt that very, very much. A lot people have 2 speeds only in these boats, stop and fast. 

I am sure they had their moments too.  I remember being in their position on nights with all that Harbour and Basin to patrol.  I suppose I should have added the sarcasm emoji but I didn't think it necessary.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm quite good friends with one of the officers who drafted the initial concept of ops and know they put a lot of effort into it.  Chief Stoker is quite correct in his statement.  There was a large amount of reading of the lessons learned from arctic operations and trying to get a feel for what capabilities the ships needed and what training the sailors needed.  Including (humorously) the fact that the bosn's were not in favor of piggybacking the infantry ashore, so as the infantry wouldn't get frostbite in the first hour of the operation due to wet boots.  Hence there is a covered landing craft requirement.  I don't think the Svalbard has that capability.

This bit has been niggling at the back of what is left of my brain

If I look at the de Wolf's posterior (personal predilection) I see this

and if I look at Svalbard's similar assets I see this

and this

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150303-arctic-expedition-sea-ice-polar-bears-lance-norwegian-polar-institute/

(Sorry but I can't link to the photograph)

Now, apparently, the "covered landing craft" capability in the de Wolf is covered by being able to swing a landing craft outboard using her work deck crane.  20 tonne rating I understand.

Svalbard also has a work deck with a crane (12 tonne only but.... ) where the work deck is actually bigger and more accessible than de Wolf's (Note the 20 foot sea can seen aboard both vessels).

And the hangar is bigger on the Svalbard (2x NH90 vs 1x CH-148).

I know I am flogging ancient horsemeat but it is Friday.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Don't know what your exact point is here, Chris.

But, the actual area dedicated to containers and extra boats at the stern of both vessels is about the same. It's just that Svalbard's is completely exposed, while half of the De Wolf's is covered by the flight deck. The flight decks themselves are about the same size, but the De Wolf, as result of this arrangement has a longer superstructure than the Svalbard.

 

[Kirkhill]

Don't know what your exact point is here, Chris.

But, the actual area dedicated to containers and extra boats at the stern of both vessels is about the same. It's just that Svalbard's is completely exposed, while half of the De Wolf's is covered by the flight deck. The flight decks themselves are about the same size, but the De Wolf, as result of this arrangement has a longer superstructure than the Svalbard.

I guess my point was that I am still looking for, and failing to find, any reason to justify not just the multipliers on constructions, but also the design contract and the two definition contracts, when the original design appears capable of doing everything the de Wolf is intended to do.

It was suggested that perhaps there was an issue with the ability to launch a covered landing craft.  It appears to me that Svalbard, barring a lighter duty crane, has an equivalent capability to the deWolfs.  I am not persuaded that adding an additional 8 tonnes of SWL capacity justified increasing the vessel price from 100 MUSD or so to something 2 to 5 times that (depending on who is doing the counting).  Would we get rebated for derating the forward gun from 57mm to 25mm?

Regretfully, I am enjoying indulging the snark. 

:cheers:

 

[jmt18325]

The Svalbard would not cost $100M today.  Construction inflation is massive.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Aussies sensible about procuring polar ship, unlike us with CCG icebreaker build-in-Canada by Seaspan (someday):

First Steel Cut [by Dutch Damen in Romania] for Australia's New Polar Research Ship

Marking the commencement of construction of the Damen Antarctic Supply Research Vessel (ASRV), a steel cutting ceremony has been held at Damen Shipyards Galati, Romania. Damen is constructing the ASRV for Serco Defence, a wholly owned subsidiary of Serco Australia who, in turn, signed a contract with the Australian Government last year for the delivery, operation and maintenance of the vessel.

“Cutting the first steel for any vessel is always significant. However, the fact that the ASRV is such a ground-breaker makes this a very exciting moment,” said Damen Project Director Joop Noordijk. “The whole team are looking forward to building what is actually an icebreaker, survey vessel and resupply vessel all rolled into one [emphasis added].”

The 160-meter ASRV will perform numerous tasks for the Australian Antarctic Division (AAD). “The new vessel is a multi-mission ship designed to sustain our geographically dispersed stations, support helicopter operations, sustain shore parties on remote islands, map the seafloor and undertake a variety of scientific activities across the Southern Ocean,” said AAD Modernization Program Manager Rob Bryson.

To fulfil these diverse roles, the ASRV boasts considerable cargo capacity: up to 96 TEU below decks and 14 TEU and six 10-foot containers on the aft deck, as well as more above the helicopter hanger and in front of the helideck. This represents a substantial increase in container carrying capacity from the AAD’s current vessel, the Aurora Australis, which can transport a total 19 containers. In practical terms, this means that the ice-breaking ASRV will be able to resupply two stations in one voyage.

In addition to supplying Australia’s three permanent research stations on the Antarctic continent as well as its research station on the sub-Antarctic Macquarie Island with cargo, equipment and personnel, the ASRV will be able to carry out comprehensive scientific research activities. To this end, the vessel will be equipped with a 500 m2 on-board laboratory that will serve as workspace for up to 116 AAD scientific staff.

In terms of research possibilities, the ASRV will serve as a valuable asset towards the advance of scientific knowledge and understanding of the Southern Ocean. The vessel will feature a 13-meter deep wide moon-pool for deployment of conductivity, temperature, acoustic and depth measurements...

Construction and outfitting of the vessel will be carried out at Damen Shipyards Galati, with engineering and project management being provided by Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding in the Netherlands.
https://www.marinelink.com/news/australias-research-first425922

Bet Aussies paying nothing like $1.3B and will get the ship fairly soon.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kirkhill]

More on that here Mark

http://www.antarctica.gov.au/icebreaker/procurement-process

http://www.damen.com/en/news/2016/05/australian_icebreaker_operated_by_dms_maritime_to_be_constructed_by_damen

http://www.damen.com/-/media/New-Corporate-Damen/Images/News/2016/05/Australian_Icebreaker_operated_by_DMS_Maritime_to_be_constructed_by_Damen/Product_Sheet_Antarctic_Supply_Research_Vessel_05_2016.pdf

25,000 tonnes, 156 m x 25.6 m, 1.65 m ice at 3 knots.  Labs and moon pools and 2 medium helos.

JSS crossed with AOPS crossed with OOSV - on a Project Resolve type contract but for 30 years of service.

Thanks for the heads up Mark.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Call Damen and sign us up for two. Done.

Wait? What? That is not how we roll in Canada?

 

[Karel Doorman]

Well Mark and others this is what's it's expected to cost.


Key points:

    Believed to cost around $500 million
    Represent's largest investment in Antarctic science and research
    New icebreaker will be operational in 2019(2020)
    A national competition will be held to name the vessel
    At 156 metres, ship more than 50pc longer than Aurora Australia
    Icebreaking capacity of 1.65 metres at 3 knots
    Can carry 96 containers and 116 staff

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-29/pm-turnbull-releases-details-of-new-500-million-icebreaker/6893848

And for the Canadian government(in case it's unknown


DAMEN SCHELDE NAVAL SHIPBUILDING
De Willem Ruysstraat 99
4381 NK Vlissingen
P.O. Box 555
4380 AN  Vlissingen
The Netherlands
phone
+31 (0)118 48 50 00
fax  +31 (0)118 48 50 50
info@damennaval.com
www.damennaval.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Aussies sensible about procuring polar ship, unlike us with CCG icebreaker build-in-Canada by Seaspan (someday):

Bet Aussies paying nothing like $1.3B and will get the ship fairly soon.

Mark
Ottawa

The 3 OFSV are all underway with one almost complete, with a Science vessel next (basically a bigger OFSV) and then the icebreaker. If the design stage is finished, then I would expect that steel for the icebreaker could start being cut on the launch of the 2nd OFSV. I suspect that 3 ships is likely the most they can handle at any one time

 

[jollyjacktar]

Tied into the new ships, it seems the In-service support contract to be awarded to the Canadian subsidiary of the French defence giant Thales.  I would have linked the story, but I can't because of the author.  I read the announcement will be officially made this month.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Just out of curiosity, did we invite foreign builders to bid on their own, under the caveat that they could build Canadian facilities from scratch?

Or were they mandated to partner with existing Canadian-owned businesses?

I seems some of the big international players could have built brand new state-of-the-art facilities on virgin ground, which would have dramatically improved the product quality, build time, and been efficient enough to then complete globally after our military projects were completed.


Thanks, M. 

 

[jmt18325]

The 3 OFSV are all underway with one almost complete, with a Science vessel next (basically a bigger OFSV) and then the icebreaker.

Not quite - it's OFSVx3, OOSVx1, then JSSx2, then Polar Icrebreakerx1.

The yard can build 4 ships at different stages at the same time.  The OOSV should start construction this year.  JSS 1 will start construction when OFSV 1 is done, and JSS 2 will start construction when OFSV 2 is done.  The Polar icebreaker won't start construction until OFSV 3 is done.  That said, it's not all that different of a timeline, considering that all 3 OFSV should be done by early 2019 some time.  I'm unclear if they're going to jump straight into the large patrol ships and medium multitask vessels as the OOSV wraps up.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P: Seaspan is to build 2 JSS before the one (only) CCG icebreaker--build contract award for latter supposed to be 2021 with delivery now pushed to 2023 (we'll see about that schedule and what will the 2013 $1.3B cost estimate [ https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/mark-collins-canadian-national-shipbuilding-strategy-long-term-costs-or-wild-ass-guesses/ ] be in dollars then?  Scroll down here:
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You guys are correct, but with the Resolve coming on line, they may bump the icebreaker up front, depending on how much life they just gained for the Louie

 

[MarkOttawa]

Colin P: See my even more radical thinking along similar lines from Oct. 2015:

Why not more Canadian Coast Guard Icebreakers Instead of RCN JSS?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/mark-collins-why-not-more-canadian-coast-guard-icebreakers-instead-of-rcn-jss/

Mark
Ottawa