New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Dale Denton]

I like that idea^.

Even better, to plan to donate or sell off (at big discount) all RCN ships as replacements roll in. Send them to developing nations. Its a safe bet as any refit those nations will wanna do will probably be given to a Canadian shipyard.

Selling/donating a CPF to someplace like Ukraine or Africa in 5 yrs would be a local game-changer as soon as a CSC is launched. Would account for a multi-million dollar donation that is safer than say... selling LAVs to a KSA. They would buy us a lot of goodwill cookies.

 

[Stoker]

If I were a federal politician, I think I’d try to kill a bunch of birds in one shot. So, say a significant gap becomes evident, maybe 2-3 years between AOPS and CSC. I think I’d pull the trigger on 2 more AOPS. Then, just before the federal elections, I’d throw something dandy at Davie to shore up my Quebec votes. That “something” could be a complete refit of 6-8 MCDV to become dedicated MCM vessels. The remaining 4-6 get cleaned up and donated to foreign navies as a goodwill gesture. Maybe to some of the African nations we’ve being visiting these last couple of years.

It’s something for everybody.
-ISI builds 23 ships instead of the 20 it was one year ago.
-Davie is still in the game doing refits until the MCDV needs replacement in 10-12 years. Maybe they become a centre of ingenuity as opposed to the 2 centres of “excellence”. They could do a HADR or Hospital ship conversion too, possibly.
-VSY isn’t spooked by Davie getting another AOR, so they’re happy

Now you have votes secured in three areas.

Also
-MCM capability is secured for the next 10-12 years
-OPV situation is stabilized for the next 25 years, until ISI finishes CSC and can start the whole process over again one ship at a time.
-Canada gains international credibility for fostering defence around the world with the donation of the surplus MCDV’s.
-CSC program picks up right after AOPS 8 without missing s beat.

A few problems, one is to convert the Kingston Class to a dedicated MCM vessel would be cost prohibited, the reason why it wasn't done a few years ago. We already do NCM operations now, with the ship like it is as we moved away for mechanical minesweeping to using AUV's and route survey, a new degausing system was just installed. Giving these ships to an small African nation would be a mistake, first of all they do not have the expertise or facilities to refit these ships. There is a reason why they only operate small boats. I would say the ships would last two years at most before they would be useless and a burden on their small resources.

Not to mention we don't give warships away and that's been the policy for some time now. We would scrap them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think we get enough AOP's already. Tag Irving to design and build the new MCDV give Davie another AOR, Seaspan is busy enough the next while. The CG 1100's are going to need work/replacement as well. Personally I would just build an improved version as they are great vessels and then you could donate one of the 1100's to Ukraine as well.

 

[Stoker]

I think we get enough AOP's already. Tag Irving to design and build the new MCDV give Davie another AOR, Seaspan is busy enough the next while. The CG 1100's are going to need work/replacement as well. Personally I would just build an improved version as they are great vessels and then you could donate one of the 1100's to Ukraine as well.

I like the idea and a longer hull would support a speed of about 20 knots. I could suggest quite a few improvements.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I think we get enough AOP's already. Tag Irving to design and build the new MCDV give Davie another AOR, Seaspan is busy enough the next while. The CG 1100's are going to need work/replacement as well. Personally I would just build an improved version as they are great vessels and then you could donate one of the 1100's to Ukraine as well.

Sure but when can Irving do it? 2038? No way they can design and build a completely new vessel in the type of gap that is likely to happen due to Alion’s complaint. But, the AOPS line is already in full swing. Two more should be a walk in the park. When CSC is close to ending, then your proposal makes a lot of sense. You give Davie another AOR and Seaspan is gonna freak. You give Davie a pile of refit work on MCDVs, even just overhauling as opposed to what I suggested earlier, and it really shouldn’t ruffle any feathers.

 

[Swampbuggy]

A few problems, one is to convert the Kingston Class to a dedicated MCM vessel would be cost prohibited, the reason why it wasn't done a few years ago. We already do NCM operations now, with the ship like it is as we moved away for mechanical minesweeping to using AUV's and route survey, a new degausing system was just installed. Giving these ships to an small African nation would be a mistake, first of all they do not have the expertise or facilities to refit these ships. There is a reason why they only operate small boats. I would say the ships would last two years at most before they would be useless and a burden on their small resources.

Not to mention we don't give warships away and that's been the policy for some time now. We would scrap them.

That’s fascinating about not giving warships away, Chief. Is that an actual government policy or just common practice here? I know the USN, RN and RAN have done it in the past and it seemed like a good idea. If they can’t be donated, then however many get paid off go to the scrappers or target practice, maybe.

As far as the MCDV refit goes, I guess what I would suggest then, is to overhaul whatever needs overhauling and just deploy them primarily in whatever mine warfare role they’re best suited to. Leave the other deployments to AOPS, I suppose.

This is all blue-sky stuff, anyway, as I doubt the Alion court action will create a significant impact on the current timeline.

But I could be wrong.

 

[suffolkowner]

I'm surprised the government wouldn't have Irving build a few more AOPS to fill whatever gap there is an foist them on the CCG

 

[Stoker]

That’s fascinating about not giving warships away, Chief. Is that an actual government policy or just common practice here? I know the USN, RN and RAN have done it in the past and it seemed like a good idea. If they can’t be donated, then however many get paid off go to the scrappers or target practice, maybe.

As far as the MCDV refit goes, I guess what I would suggest then, is to overhaul whatever needs overhauling and just deploy them primarily in whatever mine warfare role they’re best suited to. Leave the other deployments to AOPS, I suppose.

This is all blue-sky stuff, anyway, as I doubt the Alion court action will create a significant impact on the current timeline.

But I could be wrong.

Put it this way, those ships will not be any condition to be given to another country at the end of their service life in the RCN. We generally wear ships out and then scrap them. The concept of operations has the AOPS doing many of the roles the Kingston Class did, however the Kingston Class will be doing many of the tasks they are doing now including OP Caribbe and the Arctic. The operating cost of a Kingston Class is still way below that of an AOPS.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Put it this way, those ships will not be any condition to be given to another country at the end of their service life in the RCN. We generally wear ships out and then scrap them. The concept of operations has the AOPS doing many of the roles the Kingston Class did, however the Kingston Class will be doing many of the tasks they are doing now including OP Caribbe and the Arctic. The operating cost of a Kingston Class is still way below that of an AOPS.

Yes, I imagine it would be. Lugging that 6000+ tonne hull around would use a fair bit of fuel, I’d guess. Not to mention the extra bodies on board, as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Government can change policy with a stroke of the pen, I have seen Acts totally rewritten and policy completely replaced and if I stick around for another 9 months, will see it again. As for ships, you be surprised at what we consider old, others will consider "broken in" I Just found out a Public Works Dredge built in 1961 and disposed of in 2000 is working now in Malaysia and a Dredge works far harder than any other ship. A smaller vessel like the Kingstons won't "rack" as much as the bigger ships and won't suffer as much from stress cracks. The Mexicans were using WWII vintage vessels until recently. 

 

[Stoker]

Government can change policy with a stroke of the pen, I have seen Acts totally rewritten and policy completely replaced and if I stick around for another 9 months, will see it again. As for ships, you be surprised at what we consider old, others will consider "broken in" I Just found out a Public Works Dredge built in 1961 and disposed of in 2000 is working now in Malaysia and a Dredge works far harder than any other ship. A smaller vessel like the Kingstons won't "rack" as much as the bigger ships and won't suffer as much from stress cracks. The Mexicans were using WWII vintage vessels until recently.

I'm not going to get into the specifics with you in an open forum but in 10 years the oldest CFP's will be about 40 years old. They won't be going anywhere but the breakers.

 

[MARS]

I'm not going to get into the specifics with you in an open forum but in 10 years the oldest CFP's will be about 40 years old. They won't be going anywhere but the breakers.

The first ship I sailed in was commissioned under a King...just sayin  :nod:

 

[Stoker]

The first ship I sailed in was commissioned under a King...just sayin  :nod:

So did I old timer...... 8)

 

[Journeyman]

The first ship I sailed in was commissioned under a King...just sayin  :nod:

Mackenzie King? 

 

[Stoker]

Mackenzie King? 

HMCS Porte St Jean commissioned 05-Dec-51.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And paid off 1 SEP 95 - I was her last captain for an Ex. that covered the last two weeks of August.

She was not my first ship - but my second, though my first one also entered Canadian service under King George VI, but for the RCMP: HMCS FORT STEELE, as she then was in naval service.

But the Jean was the best Gate Vessel. She never let us down. 44 years of good and loyal service to her country.

 

[Cloud Cover]

This thread just passed its 9 year anniversary and the government is denying they’ve settled on a ship type but affirming there is still an intent to proceed. Maybe we should rename it the Old New Shipbuilding Strategy. I believe the AOR thread is something like 14 years old, approximately the half life of the ships that are still not built.

 

[dimsum]

This thread just passed its 9 year anniversary and the government is denying they’ve settled on a ship type but affirming there is still an intent to proceed. Maybe we should rename it the Old New Shipbuilding Strategy. I believe the AOR thread is something like 14 years old, approximately the half life of the ships that are still not built.

Not sure whether to  :rofl: -  :facepalm: or  :not-again:

 

[Dale Denton]

It makes you wonder, with all the wealth of information, knowledge, and 100s of years of experience between ppl in this thread - that this is still an issue.

Gaps, delays, politics and incompetence still exist in this file on the gov't side, yet they have mostly been solved in an online forum...

I'm also always curious as to who reads these posts, and has been reading for 10 years. $100 odd Billion dollars on the line, its probably being watched continuously by the industry and by the yards.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It makes you wonder, with all the wealth of information, knowledge, and 100s of years of experience between ppl in this thread - that this is still an issue.

Gaps, delays, politics and incompetence still exist in this file on the gov't side, yet they have mostly been solved in an online forum...

I'm also always curious as to who reads these posts, and has been reading for 10 years. $100 odd Billion dollars on the line, its probably being watched continuously by the industry and by the yards.

Here's a thought, which political party is one day just going to say, 'Bugger it, we are just going to pay the American's XX $ a/year and have them take over all of the defense of NA and we'll just use any savings to create subsidized tofu growing farms in the few areas that will be negatively impacted by this.

They say that a country gets the government and leaders that they deserve.  We are living proof of this.