New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Stoker]

You wouldn't be saying that if you knew the state of the Coast Guard fleet.

The RCN is shipshape in Bristol fashion compared to the poor Coast Guard. It needs ships and it really, really needs them now!

Besides, what would be wrong with another Asterix, even if we still get two JSS's?

Funny enough, she has been operating now for what, a year? and I have not seen or heard a single negative thing about her. Not one!

I have operated with the CG at times and have plenty of friends who work with the CG. I know they need new ships. All I'm saying is that Davie seems like the proverbial sore loser on the NSS putting out press releases offering unsolicited cut rate prices on ship conversions and slick videos on how bad the competition is and how good they are.  Will this campaign work, getting them a slice of the NSS pie?, perhaps however it also maybe be driving the government away from giving them anything else. You might want to ask yourself with a PM who has strong ties to Quebec and with an election coming up is not pandering to Davie and getting them the contracts for new builds and we all know how he loves to pander. I personally would say its the same reason why the second Asterix type conversion is not being built.

As for Asterix you are right you haven't seen a single negative thing about her publicly.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I have operated with the CG at times and have plenty of friends who work with the CG. I know they need new ships. All I'm saying is that Davie seems like the proverbial sore loser on the NSS putting out press releases offering unsolicited cut rate prices on ship conversions and slick videos on how bad the competition is and how good they are.  Will this campaign work, getting them a slice of the NSS pie?, perhaps however it also maybe be driving the government away from giving them anything else. You might want to ask yourself with a PM who has strong ties to Quebec and with an election coming up is not pandering to Davie and getting them the contracts for new builds and we all know how he loves to pander. I personally would say its the same reason why the second Asterix type conversion is not being built.

As for Asterix you are right you haven't seen a single negative thing about her publicly.

So if Davie doesn't build the required new Coast Guard ships, since they average over 30yrs old, then who is going to build them?

This all comes down to capacity - and neither Seaspan nor Irving has any left.  To Davie's point, their facilities (regardless of modernity of them), do represent 50% of the total capacity when looking at Seaspan, Irving and Davie.

 

[Stoker]

So if Davie doesn't build the required new Coast Guard ships, since they average over 30yrs old, then who is going to build them?

This all comes down to capacity - and neither Seaspan nor Irving has any left.  To Davie's point, their facilities (regardless of modernity of them), do represent 50% of the total capacity when looking at Seaspan, Irving and Davie.

I never said they shouldn't get to build CG ships, its their incessant wining about it.  The government did get them to do a light conversion on those three ice breakers and they are getting some CPF maintenance in a few years so its not like they're getting nothing. As for who should build them, there's always the offshore option. Seems like Norway and Finland can do a good job so there are options. As for Irving's capacity, it appears that a major section of land directly across from the Halifax Dockyard that is currently DND property with lots of water frontage is coming on the market fairly soon. Word has Irving eying it to build maintenance facilities to increase their capacity.

 

[Uzlu]

Interesting article.  https://www.cgai.ca/overcoming_boom_and_bust_analyzing_national_shipbuilding_plans_in_canada_and_australia

 

[Good2Golf]

Interesting article.  https://www.cgai.ca/overcoming_boom_and_bust_analyzing_national_shipbuilding_plans_in_canada_and_australia

A very interesting an insightful piece!  CGAI never disappoints when it comes to cogent, neutral/unbiased analysis and writing.

Thanks for this.

Regards
G2G

 

[Czech_pivo]

As for who should build them, there's always the offshore option. Seems like Norway and Finland can do a good job so there are options. As for Irving's capacity, it appears that a major section of land directly across from the Halifax Dockyard that is currently DND property with lots of water frontage is coming on the market fairly soon. Word has Irving eying it to build maintenance facilities to increase their capacity.

Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore, what was the point of us spending hundreds of millions on subsidizing Seaspan so they could build some Coast Guard ships?  Why bother having some built here at bloated prices and then have others built overseas?  Why not have them all built here?

Didn't the French/Italians propose the same thing with the CSC?  Have the first batch of 3 be built in Europe and then have the last 12 built here - in a shorter timeline and at a fixed cost? And we turned them down flat.

The fact is that 50% of our total current shipbuilding capacity is not being utilized and the remaining 50% is overwhelmed with what is has and has 0 ability to address what still needs to be built over the next 20yrs. 

As for the statement as to Davie 'whining' - its the prudent thing for them to do - as any business person (from the small corner store shop owner to Bombardier), marketing to the masses their abilities and willingness to take on new business.

I really hoping that with Scott Brison gone that this anti-Davie nonsense is flushed down the toilet and saner heads are given the floor.

 

[Stoker]

Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore, what was the point of us spending hundreds of millions on subsidizing Seaspan so they could build some Coast Guard ships?  Why bother having some built here at bloated prices and then have others built overseas?  Why not have them all built here?

Didn't the French/Italians propose the same thing with the CSC?  Have the first batch of 3 be built in Europe and then have the last 12 built here - in a shorter timeline and at a fixed cost? And we turned them down flat.

The fact is that 50% of our total current shipbuilding capacity is not being utilized and the remaining 50% is overwhelmed with what is has and has 0 ability to address what still needs to be built over the next 20yrs. 

As for the statement as to Davie 'whining' - its the prudent thing for them to do - as any business person (from the small corner store shop owner to Bombardier), marketing to the masses their abilities and willingness to take on new business.

I really hoping that with Scott Brison gone that this anti-Davie nonsense is flushed down the toilet and saner heads are given the floor.

Didn't you just say Sea Span is at capacity and ships are over 30 yrs old? Since the government seems not want Davie to build anything else for them perhaps going offshore is the answer? To tell you the truth i'm not sure if Davie would be the answer for new builds, perhaps purchase some more ships built overseas and convert them, they seem good at that.

 

[Uzlu]

Wait a minute, if you're suggesting that we have our needed Coast Guard ships to be built offshore

The coast guard ships will not be built offshore.  The purpose of the National Shipbuilding Strategy is to build all coast guard and naval surface vessels 1 000 tonnes displacement or larger in Canada and not Finland, Norway, or any other country.  It appears that Trudeau and the Liberals believe that Seaspan should build all of the coast guard ships.  I think this is a disastrous decision. 

What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

 

[Stoker]

The coast guard ships will not be built offshore.  The purpose of the National Shipbuilding Strategy is to build all coast guard and naval surface vessels 1 000 tonnes displacement or larger in Canada and not Finland, Norway, or any other country.  It appears that Trudeau and the Liberals believe that Seaspan should build all of the coast guard ships.  I think this is a disastrous decision. 

What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

I know they won't however the government did buy three used icebreakers from Europe through Federal Fleet.  Perhaps a case can be made to purchase additional lightly used boats and have Davie convert them. Isn't that what Davie was originally proposing.

 

[Good2Golf]

...
What Trudeau and the Liberals should do is to revise the National Shipbuilding Strategy to include Davie.  What they should do is to have all the political parties, all the shipbuilders, all the interested government departments, the navy, and the coast guard get together to come to some sort of agreement on a national shipbuilding strategy that everyone can live with.  And there should be mandatory annual reviews to fine tune this strategy if needed.

Particularly since the Strategy is more than “a tenth of a century” old.  :nod:

Good governance best practices would include the kind of periodic reviews Uzlu notes above.

Regards
G2G

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The main issue with the NSPS is that it is 20 years to late. Currently Seaspan has 3 and bit ships underway, with 3 more on the books to be built. That will keep them for another 6-8 years. The government could pick a design independent of any shipyard (I favour an updated 1100 class evolution) and they can parcel out 3 to davie and reserve the other 3 for whatever shipyard needs it. Both Davie and Seaspan have stepped up to the plate in my opinion, Irving is the spoiled child. Frankly I would love to give 3 1100 class to Davie, a Resolve conversion and completion of 2 Mistral class ships to be partly built in France with the rest in Davie.
Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons. 

 

[Baz]

Living in Nova Scotia, I'm personally more tired of the whining coming out of Irving and it's union.

Even though maintenance of the frigates isn't part of the NSS, wasn't already contracted, and from all accounts Irving didn't have the capacity to have two in the yard at once as the schedule needs, they formed the "Ships Stay Here" campaign.  Some of the comments resulting from that on Facebook towards Quebec were disgusting, especially coming from an area as propped up by federal money as Halifax.

I'm also not sure why as a Nova Scotia taxpayer I have to shoulder the risk in the form of forgivable loans as opposed to Irving for their dockyard upgrade.

They say it's to avoid a production gap and the loss of skilled workers, yet they don't care if thaey take care of those same workers.  Don't need welders for a few weeks, lay them off.  And then act surprised that you have labour issues.  Not that the union is altruistic though.

But hey, the result is an order for a sixth AOPS, that it isn't even clear there is a requirement for, even though it seems (because nobody releases the figures) that Irving didn't contractually qualify for, and its unclear if the RCN can man (much like it's unclear the RCAF can man the "fighter gap" buy) to avoid the "production gap."

I guess if it works it isn't whining?

 

[Czech_pivo]

The main issue with the NSPS is that it is 20 years to late. Currently Seaspan has 3 and bit ships underway, with 3 more on the books to be built. That will keep them for another 6-8 years. The government could pick a design independent of any shipyard (I favour an updated 1100 class evolution) and they can parcel out 3 to davie and reserve the other 3 for whatever shipyard needs it. Both Davie and Seaspan have stepped up to the plate in my opinion, Irving is the spoiled child. Frankly I would love to give 3 1100 class to Davie, a Resolve conversion and completion of 2 Mistral class ships to be partly built in France with the rest in Davie.
Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons.

Seaspan should have 4 ships on the books - the 2 JSS, the 1 Scientific ship (which is part of the NSPS but suddenly no one is talking about) and The Dief.  Thats a total of 4 ships and it will take them longer than 8 years to build those 4 ships, more like 10yrs.

And then don't forget about the small ships, the OPVS that were listed as part of the NSPS that Seaspan was supposed to build.  When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Also by the time the CSC is running full bore, we need to replace the Kingstons.

Nice to see that someone else is thinking about these ships as well.  These need to be started to be thought about - what type of ship will we replace them with, the timeline to replace them and then, most importantly, who will have the excess capacity to build them.

The oldest of the Kingston (HMSC Kingston) will turn 25yrs old this summer....think about that....are we looking to keep them around for another 10yrs?  Great, that will make them 35yrs old. So, if we plan to start building new ones in 10yrs then we need to start planning what we will need, pick a design, hold the competition, do the review, agree to a contract and then start building them.  Given our track record over the last 18yrs and how we've yet to build and have accepted into the RCN not 1 ship in that time frame, I'm of the belief that we need to start moving NOW on the Kingston as those 10yrs to go by and nothing will be done.

 

[Uzlu]

When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.

Probably closer to twenty years.  Instead of Seaspan building ships for the navy and coast guard for forty years before starting again on another forty-year build cycle, Seaspan and Davie could each have twenty-year build cycles.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Seaspan should have 4 ships on the books - the 2 JSS, the 1 Scientific ship (which is part of the NSPS but suddenly no one is talking about) and The Dief.  Thats a total of 4 ships and it will take them longer than 8 years to build those 4 ships, more like 10yrs.

And then don't forget about the small ships, the OPVS that were listed as part of the NSPS that Seaspan was supposed to build.  When taking that under consideration, Seaspan has 0 capacity left for 10-14yrs - fact.

You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

 

[Czech_pivo]

You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

Add 10 meters to the length of the hull and move on...... :rofl:

 

[Czech_pivo]

You note I said 3 and "bit" they have started one of the JSS, so technically that leaves them with 3 confirmed orders waiting for build. I think the problem is that the Science Vessel design has some major flaws in it, which is not surprising, a lot of Federal Government ships were top heavy designs, with to much stuff in to little hull. I am not exactly sure who is responsible for the design, the rumour I have heard is that the team tagged with turning the plans into a ship, started flagging potential flaws and now there is a finger pointing exercise going on.

I also find it somewhat sad that we are a 3 Ocean country that is trying to build a single new Scientific Research ship that will be spread across all 3 Oceans.... :facepalm:

 

[Kirkhill]

I also find it somewhat sad that we are a 3 Ocean country that is trying to build a single new Scientific Research ship that will be spread across all 3 Oceans.... :facepalm:

Montreal, Quebec, Toronto, Vancouver - Clear-cuts.  Surrounded by trees.  It is hard to see any further.

 

[Dale Denton]

What happened with that supposed 'refresh'?

What do you hope to see thrown to Davie? Would be counter to the purpose of rebuilding an industry if you let 1 shipyard suffer for the sake of 2 busier ones.

I hope that at minimum they get an MCDV refit job pushed through, or perhaps more CCG work. Unlikely, but another Asterix but more modified towards HADR, with capability for sub-tender/rescue ship.