New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Journeyman]

A Tempest In a D-Cup

I wonder how long he's been waiting to use that line?  :not-again:




Edit: typo

 

[RangerRay]

I wonder how long he's been waiting to use that line?  :not-again:




Edit: typo

Yeah, a little over the top.  But he is right about our unqualified premier trying to claim credit for something she could not possibly had a hand in influencing.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Im excited ;D the first keel will be getting laid 2013 and they will be building the icebreakers first, similar size to the CPF's. Once those are complete they will begin on the tankers that are so desperately needed.

Close, but not quite

 

[The Bread Guy]

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced that the Government of Canada and Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd. have successfully reached an agreement in principle that paves the way for the construction of Canada’s non-combat fleet under the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy (NSPS).

“Our Government is committed to supporting the Canadian marine industry, to revitalize Canadian shipyards and to build ships for the Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard here in Canada,” said Prime Minister Harper.  “The agreement in principle reached today with Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd. is a milestone of our Government’s National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy – a strategy that will mean jobs and economic growth for the country and stability for the industry.” ....

PM news release, 12 Jan 12

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Im excited ;D the first keel will be getting laid 2013 and they will be building the icebreakers first, similar size to the CPF's. Once those are complete they will begin on the tankers that are so desperately needed.

Close, but not quite

If Cdr Sproule is to be believed (and he should since he is the Project Director), the AOPS, at 5730 tonnes, will have a displacement 1000 tonnes greater than the Halifax's. Ref: His October 2011 presentation to Dalhousie University Centre for Foreign Policy Study. His briefing also stressed the need for lots of redundancy and self sufficiency in all systems in view of the lack of maritime support infrastructure in the North.

This leads to interesting questions since the AOPS were touted as replacements for the MCDV's and, it is suggested in many circles, still "reserve" operated. In my days (I don't know if still current) the Minor Warship Command Cerificate qualified you to command "a warship smaller than a frigate other than a submarine". The AOPS - being bigger - do not qualify. I suppose you could redefine the Minor Warship based on the level and type of weapons they carry/offensive weapons capability , but then the AOR's could become minor warships! Similarly, the "self-sufficiency" WRT systems means Eng. Techs and Artificers, not MESO's. In any event, that would be a different debate that belongs somewhere else.

PS: Mods: If you feel this should be put in the AOPS thread, feel free to move.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Perhaps time to think about a "Naval Auxiliary" People who are nominally navy but under a contract that is more geared to civy street, sort of like the RN model? This might be a way to address technical qualification needs, also to retain some of the people with the skill sets needed.

 

[Stoker]

If Cdr Sproule is to be believed (and he should since he is the Project Director), the AOPS, at 5730 tonnes, will have a displacement 1000 tonnes greater than the Halifax's. Ref: His October 2011 presentation to Dalhousie University Centre for Foreign Policy Study. His briefing also stressed the need for lots of redundancy and self sufficiency in all systems in view of the lack of maritime support infrastructure in the North.

This leads to interesting questions since the AOPS were touted as replacements for the MCDV's and, it is suggested in many circles, still "reserve" operated. In my days (I don't know if still current) the Minor Warship Command Cerificate qualified you to command "a warship smaller than a frigate other than a submarine". The AOPS - being bigger - do not qualify. I suppose you could redefine the Minor Warship based on the level and type of weapons they carry/offensive weapons capability , but then the AOR's could become minor warships! Similarly, the "self-sufficiency" WRT systems means Eng. Techs and Artificers, not MESO's. In any event, that would be a different debate that belongs somewhere else.

PS: Mods: If you feel this should be put in the AOPS thread, feel free to move.

The AOPS are not a replacement for the MCDV's and will not have any reserve billets as briefed by DMAR PERS last week. It is unclear that under the blended, one navy construct there will be reserves on them. That being said we are now starting to train MESO's towards their AMOC's so eventually there probably will be some and most of the other trades are across the board the same training as the regular force.

As briefed by the Vice-Admiral Maddison in a interview last week the Kingston class are expected to be around until the 2020's and longer.
Thats what we are working towards now.

Here is part of the interview

Reporter:  Can you tell me about the fate of the MCDV.  What is going to happen to them once the AOPs are made available?

Comd RCN :  In terms of the Kingston-class, we should run them as long as we can.  They were designed and built to commercial specification, they are relatively an unsophisticated platform in terms of combat and marine systems and they are very capable in terms of providing the navy the flexibility to support other government departments to participate in presence and sovereignty patrols to deploy to all three coasts and to train to some degree in mine hunting missions.  So I see no reason why we need to plan for an end date for this class.  I think we can continue to run them well into the 2020s if not the 2030s.  In terms of the AOPs, this is a very exciting new capability in terms of quantity and quality coming into the naval order of battle to give us that persistent presence and surveillance sovereignty patrol capability in the high Arctic.

Reporter:  There seems to be some debate as to what to do with the Kingston-class.  Should they be retired, whether you have enough personnel to crew them.  Do you believe you will have enough people? 

Comd RCN :  Regardless of how the capability was initially generated, that was 20 years ago, the capability has been a real value to Canada and it has certainly been an extremely valuable opportunity for our naval reservists on full-time employment to crew these ships and to really build a professional base as a sea-going naval reserve.  In terms of crewing the AOPs, I do not necessarily see a link between the Kingston-class and the introduction of the AOPs.  What I will tell you is that certainly in the growth of the CF over the past 5 or 6 years, the growth was not in the navy.  In fact, we stalled on the attraction front, which was a real concern for us.  And we have corrected that problem.  The CDS and the Commander of Canadian Forces Recruiting Group have made attracting sailors their number one priority as we met the aims of ensuring the army and the CF had the right men and women with the right skill sets in Afghanistan to take the battle against the Taliban and be as effective as they were.  But in this entire process, I have seen and articulated the desire to see the establishment of the navy to grow in order to be in the right position to man the JSS, AOPs the CSC and modernize the Halifax-class, as we go through that transition, and to keep running the Kinston-class.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Perhaps time to think about a "Naval Auxiliary" People who are nominally navy but under a contract that is more geared to civy street, sort of like the RN model? This might be a way to address technical qualification needs, also to retain some of the people with the skill sets needed.

Would that not be like the Coast Guard?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Coast guard is merchant marine with no connection.

This explains it better than I can
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary


bit more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Fleet_Auxiliary

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Coast guard is merchant marine with no connection.

This explains it better than I can
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary


bit more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Fleet_Auxiliary

I am familiar with the RFA. My point was do we need to form a quasi naval gendarme type of force like our CG that may balk at being armed like our CG.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The RCFA  would be hired to support the Navy and the requirements that are unique to that situation would be clear. It might mean that supply ships are run by the RCFA and therefore the navy can concentrate the sailors it has onto the warships.

Getting the CCG to move from it's current role to a more war like one would actually be more difficult than starting a new organization with that role in mind. It helps that there is a working model to use.

The reality is that the navy is suffering manpower issues and need to think outside of our old boxes.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The RCFA  would be hired to support the Navy and the requirements that are unique to that situation would be clear. It might mean that supply ships are run by the RCFA and therefore the navy can concentrate the sailors it has onto the warships.

Getting the CCG to move from it's current role to a more war like one would actually be more difficult than starting a new organization with that role in mind. It helps that there is a working model to use.

The reality is that the navy is suffering manpower issues and need to think outside of our old boxes.

Would not finding new personnel for the "RCFA" also cut into the pool of mariners and prospective mariners that both the RCN and the CCG use to man ships? So instead of two agencies there would be three....

 

[jollyjacktar]

I don't know.  We already have an axillary.  Look at the Glen Tugs and Quest.  They would fall into that category that the RFA works under.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would not finding new personnel for the "RCFA" also cut into the pool of mariners and prospective mariners that both the RCN and the CCG use to man ships? So instead of two agencies there would be three....

Not really the RCFA would provide a tool for Canadian mariners to get much needed seatime for ON1 & 2 tickets as well as Master mariners, plus the engineering side as well. Canadian merchant marine officers are well regarded around the world for professionalism and training. Also the RCFA would provide an opening for more deep sea time for deck crew as well. The Coast Guard is never short of people that want to work for them, at least on the West Coast. The RCFA would also be a place for people to move to who wish to keep their hand in, but are tired of the long deployments. The downside is that it would be harder for the navy to attract people to man the warships and some friction from different pay, benefits and the RCFA getting shorter deployments.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Personally I like knowing that the sailors on the Preserver get the same pay I do, have the same heartaches I do, share the same experiences I do. While I have worked with the RFA, I can't relate to them beyond general sailor stuff. I think it would breed more friction then we need. Same risks, same pay no perceived favouritism.

I don't know.  We already have an axillary.  Look at the Glen Tugs and Quest.  They would fall into that category that the RFA works under.

Not sure too many of them would be keen on being on an AOR in the middle of the GoO.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Personally I like knowing that the sailors on the Preserver get the same pay I do, have the same heartaches I do, share the same experiences I do. While I have worked with the RFA, I can't relate to them beyond general sailor stuff. I think it would breed more friction then we need. Same risks, same pay no perceived favouritism.
Not sure too many of them would be keen on being on an AOR in the middle of the GoO.

And I, being a Tanker Wanker at heart, still pine for the AOR lifestyle.  My point was that we already have civilian sailors working for DND, so it's not too far of a stretch to think it could happen.  Big picture wise.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The AOPS are not a replacement for the MCDV's and will not have any reserve billets as briefed by DMAR PERS last week. It is unclear that under the blended, one navy construct there will be reserves on them. That being said we are now starting to train MESO's towards their AMOC's so eventually there probably will be some and most of the other trades are across the board the same training as the regular force.

As briefed by the Vice-Admiral Maddison in a interview last week the Kingston class are expected to be around until the 2020's and longer.
Thats what we are working towards now.

Sorry I took so long to follow up Chief - been ill for a week but feeling much better now.

I am glad the AOPS are to be RegF manned. Arctic operations require more than training - they require experience - for the senior seamen in most MOCs. A reservist would have a very hard time acquiring and maintaining this level of experience.

I am also glad they intend to keep the MCDV's around, but it then raises the matter of their Mid-life" again. The advertised logic for canning the mid-life's presented to the public originally was that (1) they were not good "patrol" vessels for Canada's offshore oceanic areas of operation - too slow and underarmed, and (2) they were to be replaced by the AOPS. (in fact, in the concluding passages of the 100th anniversary book commissioned by the Navy "Citizen Sailors", such replacement and devolution to the reserve of the AOPS is seriously hinted at).

I know that as the MCDV's get their mains re-bedded, a lot of work is done on the engineering side and that some updates and additions have been made to their communications and sensor suites, but a major upgrading of those last two items is required soon if they are to be able to continue into the 2030's so as to keep them able to communicate with the rest of the fleet, of partaking in the common operations picture and of significantly contributing to it. For instance, the main search radar could be replaced by the same Smart-S put in the FELEX (those radars are specifically designed for patrol boats and up) together with the most current links in a full new communication suite and the gun replaced by something akin to the Raphael Typhoon gun, which would provide an Electro-optical Surveillance system. Just a personal suggestion, this for instance.
 

 

[Stoker]

Sorry I took so long to follow up Chief - been ill for a week but feeling much better now.

I am glad the AOPS are to be RegF manned. Arctic operations require more than training - they require experience - for the senior seamen in most MOCs. A reservist would have a very hard time acquiring and maintaining this level of experience.

I am also glad they intend to keep the MCDV's around, but it then raises the matter of their Mid-life" again. The advertised logic for canning the mid-life's presented to the public originally was that (1) they were not good "patrol" vessels for Canada's offshore oceanic areas of operation - too slow and underarmed, and (2) they were to be replaced by the AOPS. (in fact, in the concluding passages of the 100th anniversary book commissioned by the Navy "Citizen Sailors", such replacement and devolution to the reserve of the AOPS is seriously hinted at).

I know that as the MCDV's get their mains re-bedded, a lot of work is done on the engineering side and that some updates and additions have been made to their communications and sensor suites, but a major upgrading of those last two items is required soon if they are to be able to continue into the 2030's so as to keep them able to communicate with the rest of the fleet, of partaking in the common operations picture and of significantly contributing to it. For instance, the main search radar could be replaced by the same Smart-S put in the FELEX (those radars are specifically designed for patrol boats and up) together with the most current links in a full new communication suite and the gun replaced by something akin to the Raphael Typhoon gun, which would provide an Electro-optical Surveillance system. Just a personal suggestion, this for instance.

Glad to hear you are feeling better. Yes the billets on a AOPS will be regular force, however no one has precisely explained where the crews will actually come from especially when they want to have at least 2 crews available for them at all times.
I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be some reserves on them, perhaps not primarily crewed but augmented under blended crewing model.

MCDV's seem to have found a niche in OP Caribbe operations it seems. Last year the MCT and SUM were very effective in operating around some of the more troubled Caribbean island nations. It was mentioned that the addition of a low light surveillance system would increase their effectiveness in those types of operations and it just makes sense to add such a system. If they will add such a system time will tell.

There are a number of EC's being implemented into the KINGSTON Class and I expect as time and money allows will continue to do so. The new OPS room upgrade has been completed along with new radars, however not too sure about any links.

I believe there is a plan to have the CCR/CER finally upgraded in the near future as it is quickly being outdated.

This year at least on the east coast, four MCDV's have a very busy sailing schedule with not much downtime.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
This year at least on the east coast, four MCDV's have a very busy sailing schedule with not much downtime.

Which appears, to me anyway, to make good economic sense: they are cheap and, for some missions, quite capable.

 

[Kirkhill]

"If we do this right, there will be enough work, not just for 30 years, but for 40 or 50 years," said Stoffer

I culled the above quote from an Ottawa Citizen article.....Now, about your delivery times  >