New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[MarkOttawa]

A lesson for Canada--Aussies signed contract for big Antarctic icebreaker with Dutch firm Damen in 2016--build mainly in Romania, now on first operational voyage (official website here, 25,500 tonnes About Nuyina ). PM Harper announced new Canadian polar breaker in 2018; we'll be lucky to get first of (now) two by 2030. GO FIGURE:



Mark
Ottawa

Oops! Harper announced new breaker in 2008!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

$529M cost and all in $1.9B over 30 years

Oops! Harper announced new breaker in 2008!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[suffolkowner]

Oops! Harper announced new breaker in 2008!

Mark
Ottawa

There hasn't been a contract signed with Davie or Seaspan yet has there?

 

[Stoker]

There hasn't been a contract signed with Davie or Seaspan yet has there?

Not as of yet, Davie is still upgrading their yard to be in compliance with the NSP. Davie still haven't finished all the CCG conversions yet.

 

[Stoker]

A lesson for Canada--Aussies signed contract for big Antarctic icebreaker with Dutch firm Damen in 2016--build mainly in Romania, now on first operational voyage (official website here, 25,500 tonnes About Nuyina ). PM Harper announced new Canadian polar breaker in 2018; we'll be lucky to get first of (now) two by 2030. GO FIGURE:



Mark
Ottawa

I looked at the specs for this ship. Its more of a cargo vessel than a Coast Guard icebreaker vessel isn't it?

 

[suffolkowner]

Not as of yet, Davie is still upgrading their yard to be in compliance with the NSP. Davie still haven't finished all the CCG conversions yet.

So Davie is actually doing upgrades to their facilities? Thats good to know. I see that the CCGS Molly Kool is the only one listed as in service. The other two aren't ready yet?

 

[Stoker]

So Davie is actually doing upgrades to their facilities? Thats good to know. I see that the CCGS Molly Kool is the only one listed as in service. The other two aren't ready yet?

They have to upgrade to meet the base requirements to be the 3rd NSP yard. There was something in the news some time ago about it the delays to the conversions, in fact they been pretty quiet about it. Go figure.

 

[suffolkowner]

No there was something in the news some time ago about it, in fact they been pretty quiet about it. Go figure.

I remember there was a lead paint issue

 

[MilEME09]

Not as of yet, Davie is still upgrading their yard to be in compliance with the NSP. Davie still haven't finished all the CCG conversions yet.

Unfortunately they have been quiet on those upgrades, heck December has been rather quiet for the NSS, though a quick Twitter search shows the bow of HMCS Protecteur was finished Nov 30th.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

When I do my rounds at VDC/WG I see they are getting in a lot of the sub components for the JSS which are stored away in various buildings awaiting their installation, so a lot is happening on that front.

 

[Dana381]

When I do my rounds at VDC/WG I see they are getting in a lot of the sub components for the JSS which are stored away in various buildings awaiting their installation, so a lot is happening on that front.

That is great to hear, any more progress pictures?

 

[MilEME09]

That is great to hear, any more progress pictures?

From the season twitter of the bow being finished Nov 30

 

[Dana381]

That's awesome. Thanks. Great to see her progressing. I'm also geeking out on the crane. That is a very complicated lift. I wonder what the piece weighs

 

[Underway]

The Brits started down this path circa 1990 when they formed a (short-lived) thing called the Procurement Executive. God managers were brought in from the private sector and from gov't, too, but the thing began to fail almost immediately because defence procurement is, almost always, a "big buck" issue and voters didn't want those high cost decisions being made by the "hired help." UK voters literally wanted 'political interference' which they, very correctly, understood to be gov't ministers doing their jobs. The whole thing collapsed about 18 months after the initial fanfare and the (proper, in my opinion) role of ministers was reintroduced and even strengthened: "Buy British," etc, etc. In my view the defence procurement issue played an outsized role in Brexit because the 'Leave' side "British ships made in British yards" etc.

So which minister in Canada does this? Innovation and Industry minister, defense minister, public service and procurement minister, labour minister, fisheries/oceans and coast guard minister, finance minister?

This is at the end of the day a Cabinet thing with only one minister that matters. Prime Minister. Ever since Cretien all roads lead through the PM.
Which means civil servants doing the project management and no political accountability by any minister.

 

[Spencer100]

So which minister in Canada does this? Innovation and Industry minister, defense minister, public service and procurement minister, labour minister, fisheries/oceans and coast guard minister, finance minister?

This is at the end of the day a Cabinet thing with only one minister that matters. Prime Minister. Ever since Cretien all roads lead through the PM.
Which means civil servants doing the project management and no political accountability by any minister.

I would suggest that is our governments largest failing the breakdown of ministerial power and responsibility. With everything in the hands of the PMO. It effects everything not just procurement.

 

[Dale Denton]

Yes more government, more patronized positions for GO/FOs as Public Servants will fix this. Huzaah!

What will fix this is an engagement by the Canadian public. Sadly I know thats a bridge too far..

I'll defend,

Lets stop waiting for the solution to our procurement woes rely on:

• A majority of Canadians becoming highly interested in the state of the CF in levels unseen since...WW2?
• We can organise a centralized body charged with efficiently and apolitically controlling procurement that will not require any organisational infrastructure or humans to run it.
• Gov't will wake up tomorrow and push through a whole-sale redesign of the CAF org structure, fix an arguably broken leadership culture, rebuild the entire Reserves, ease recruiting and retention issues.

The best of the best GOFOs can get hired as expert advisors/board members by the gov't commission/agency. In order to control and properly observe something is to have the right eyes on. We have a complicated system. Hire-out an expensive Canadian accounting firm to organise and set corporate governance for this new body in order to save us $Billions, years, and cuts into contracts. This external gov't body would be assigned to reorg procurement in a setting that limit the number of hands in the pie, keep projects apolitical. Move the focus from politically-motivated purchases to an arms-length independant body.

Trial this body to only handle the NSS file, and make future determinations on building what the RCN/CCG needs, if they can be built reasonably in Canada, what MOTS design, and which yard is best-timed to build it.

We have a glut of GO/FOs that's well documented. Sub-delegate these existing positions to lower ranks until you're happy. Reorg their staff/infrastructure as needed. Move the now surplus GOFOs into cushy academia positions before they to retire. They can share their expertise with academia and our allies or perhaps offered cash to retire.

Heck, public opinion would side with any gov't looking to dramatically shake-up the DND/CF at the expense of these GOFOs in the name of efficiency. If any pushback occurs, simply compare the number of GOFOs to the numbers our friends have.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'll defend,

Lets stop waiting for the solution to our procurement woes rely on:

• A majority of Canadians becoming highly interested in the state of the CF in levels unseen since...WW2?
• We can organise a centralized body charged with efficiently and apolitically controlling procurement that will not require any organisational infrastructure or humans to run it.
• Gov't will wake up tomorrow and push through a whole-sale redesign of the CAF org structure, fix an arguably broken leadership culture, rebuild the entire Reserves, ease recruiting and retention issues.

The best of the best GOFOs can get hired as expert advisors/board members by the gov't commission/agency. In order to control and properly observe something is to have the right eyes on. We have a complicated system. Hire-out an expensive Canadian accounting firm to organise and set corporate governance for this new body in order to save us $Billions, years, and cuts into contracts. This external gov't body would be assigned to reorg procurement in a setting that limit the number of hands in the pie, keep projects apolitical. Move the focus from politically-motivated purchases to an arms-length independant body.

Trial this body to only handle the NSS file, and make future determinations on building what the RCN/CCG needs, if they can be built reasonably in Canada, what MOTS design, and which yard is best-timed to build it.

We have a glut of GO/FOs that's well documented. Sub-delegate these existing positions to lower ranks until you're happy. Reorg their staff/infrastructure as needed. Move the now surplus GOFOs into cushy academia positions before they to retire. They can share their expertise with academia and our allies or perhaps offered cash to retire.

Heck, public opinion would side with any gov't looking to dramatically shake-up the DND/CF at the expense of these GOFOs in the name of efficiency. If any pushback occurs, simply compare the number of GOFOs to the numbers our friends have.

One would hope that "the best of the best GOFOs" would care enough about Canada's sovereignty and security to have found ways to make the case, in the media, to the Canadian people, that they, the people, need to make better political choices.

I don't blame Prime Minister Trudeau for the mess we're in. His father, 50+ years ago, told Canadians that they didn't need defences; that the military was an Anglophilic waste of effort; that we needed to look after our own petty, provincial concerns and let the "big guys" sort out global geopolitics. I don't really blame PET, either. I blame my fellow citizens, then and now, for believing that line, for abandoning Louis St Laurent's vision of Canada as a leading middle power. And I blame "the best of the best GOFOs" for going along to get along, for, with rare and notable exceptions, putting careers ~ in uniform and, later, in the defence industry ~ ahead of their duty to their country.

Prime Ministers Trudeau, Chrétien and Trudeau just did what the people wanted. The people want butter, not guns. That's what they have.

 

[Underway]

One would hope that "the best of the best GOFOs" would care enough about Canada's sovereignty and security to have found ways to make the case, in the media, to the Canadian people, that they, the people, need to make better political choices.

I don't blame Prime Minister Trudeau for the mess we're in. His father, 50+ years ago, told Canadians that they didn't need defences; that the military was an Anglophilic waste of effort; that we needed to look after our own petty, provincial concerns and let the "big guys" sort out global geopolitics. I don't really blame PET, either. I blame my fellow citizens, then and now, for believing that line, for abandoning Louis St Laurent's vision of Canada as a leading middle power. And I blame "the best of the best GOFOs" for going along to get along, for, with rare and notable exceptions, putting careers ~ in uniform and, later, in the defence industry ~ ahead of their duty to their country.

Prime Ministers Trudeau, Chrétien and Trudeau just did what the people wanted. The people want butter, not guns. That's what they have.

Harper and Mulroney did the exact same thing. Put the navy back in blue (black actually) and gave us an executive curl and our proper commands back (RCN is back, executive curl and everything) but it's just military green washing.

The geopolitical reality of Canada is that our greatest threat is internal and/or the US. Has been and always will be. We can't outclass the US in military so we decided to basically be a parasite. Louis St. Laurent vision was wrong and didn't take into account the Quiet Revolution (because it didn't exist when he was PM). He didn't take into account the growth of the West. He didn't understand that our geography drives us apart instead of bringing us together. There is no grand cultural flow across Canada, all things flow north to south not east to west. There is no natural river or transport system like the Mississipi that forces us together. And where one sort of exists language keeps us apart.


The fact we exist at all is an anomaly. If it wasn't for the US digesting the frontier they would have digested us instead. And by the time they finished they were full. This is the reality of Canada. I love it and I'm happy that we make it work despite the unnatural way we have formed and the extra work it takes to keep us together.

Until there is a real existential external threat that only we can deal with with no US help we will never invest strongly into the military. We don't need to. And there is only one direction an existential external threat is going to come from. The south.

So that means the voters are correct if short sighted.

 

[MilEME09]

Canadian navy needs to recruit 1,000 sailors to crew new warships: Commander

The commander of the Royal Canadian Navy is sounding the alarm over a shortage of sailors, saying he needs about 1,000 additional mariners to crew Canada's warships.

www.ctvnews.ca

Well we are running out if time on the people front as two possibly 3 AOPS's will be delivered the RCN in 2022, the hurt of people is going to be felt. Tough choices need to be made, especially for covid mitigation in order to get sailors trained.

 

[Dale Denton]

Heck, maybe a frigate will have to be early retired (as 5 RCN ships have already) and it'll free up even more people. Problem solved.

No input from anyone on how to fix recruitment and retention, just the same excuses ('rona, misconduct). Nothing on making the CF a better place to work for families or 'sexy' new equipment.