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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
To quote former Finance Minister Michael Wilson, 'Canada is a country of hewers of wood and drawers of water'. Not much was really change since he said that.
In reality the change has been to more of a resource extraction base. In the last twenty years we have lost manufacturing in this country, Gone are 4 GM, 1 Ford, 1 Chrysler plus more auto plants. 4 Heavy truck, International, Sterling, Western Star and Mack. Orion and Blue bird bus production. ElectroMotive Diesel engine and trains. Hundreds of tier 1 and feeder plants. There is no tractor production, no farm equipment but for one in Winnipeg. No lift trucks. (Selleck being special units) Very limited construction equipment, Volvo graders pulled out.

We have lost our entire telcoms manufacturing base Nortel and Blackberry

Our airspace prime Bombardier imploded.

Steel production is half what is was 20 years.
 
In reality the change has been to more of a resource extraction base. In the last twenty years we have lost manufacturing in this country, Gone are 4 GM, 1 Ford, 1 Chrysler plus more auto plants. 4 Heavy truck, International, Sterling, Western Star and Mack. Orion and Blue bird bus production. ElectroMotive Diesel engine and trains. Hundreds of tier 1 and feeder plants. There is no tractor production, no farm equipment but for one in Winnipeg. No lift trucks. (Selleck being special units) Very limited construction equipment, Volvo graders pulled out.

We have lost our entire telcoms manufacturing base Nortel and Blackberry

Our airspace prime Bombardier imploded.

Steel production is half what is was 20 years.
Yeah, but we’ll hit NetZero 2050 and have free prescriptions and dental care…
 
We've all said that Mistral is a pipe dream but it really is worth keeping in mind for when the RCN is in a better shape to crew them. Imagine if we parked it off Vancouver when it was effectively cut off from Canada. What a win would it be to have had a floating mobile powerplant and a hospital with surgical suite parked off a Canadian city/town for HADR. All things that we will undoubtedly need off a Canadian shore again in the next 10 years. Coupled with a few Federal Fleet RO-RO ships we could do some good with these on the cheap.

Not to mention its ability to transport the CAF and make it a more viable global partner. Build it in France for cheap and Canadianize the hell out of it in a Canadian yard. They made an ice-strengthened version even. Could train in the arctic, with NATO, France, even build an Amphibious Task Group with time.

My pie in the sky idea would be:
1x (preferably 2x) aircraft carrier of the same design as the Italian Cavour
2x (preferably 4x) Mistral class amphibious assault ships
12x Braunschweig class corvettes to replace the Kingstons, with a hangar large enough for a Cyclone/Cormorant and Canadian standard electronics and weapons systems like 25mm Bushmaster Mk 38, Harpoon and ESSM.
Up-gun the AOPS to 76mm. OTO Melara makes a compact version of their 76, the Sovraponte, that is 40% lighter than the standard version and bolts directly to the deck and doesn't require penetrating the deck. This would be perfect for the Harry DeWolf class.
Fast attack craft. Missile boats like the Finnish Hamino class (which are similar in size to the Orca training patrol craft but built for combat and stealth) but Canadian-ized. Modernized Elco 80' PT boats with fiberglass, aluminum or steel hulls, Mk 48 torpedoes, a Bushmaster 25mm at the bow, modern engines, radar and food storage. PBRs, same design but with new engines and a C6 and Mk 19 grenade launcher instead of the M60 and Mk 18 launcher.
 
My pie in the sky idea would be:
1x (preferably 2x) aircraft carrier of the same design as the Italian Cavour
2x (preferably 4x) Mistral class amphibious assault ships
12x Braunschweig class corvettes to replace the Kingstons, with a hangar large enough for a Cyclone/Cormorant and Canadian standard electronics and weapons systems like 25mm Bushmaster Mk 38, Harpoon and ESSM.
Up-gun the AOPS to 76mm. OTO Melara makes a compact version of their 76, the Sovraponte, that is 40% lighter than the standard version and bolts directly to the deck and doesn't require penetrating the deck. This would be perfect for the Harry DeWolf class.
Fast attack craft. Missile boats like the Finnish Hamino class (which are similar in size to the Orca training patrol craft but built for combat and stealth) but Canadian-ized. Modernized Elco 80' PT boats with fiberglass, aluminum or steel hulls, Mk 48 torpedoes, a Bushmaster 25mm at the bow, modern engines, radar and food storage. PBRs, same design but with new engines and a C6 and Mk 19 grenade launcher instead of the M60 and Mk 18 launcher.

Mine would be

Ditch the carriers - replace with inshore AIP subs (PEM Fuel Cells, Stirlings, Nukes, Mini-Nukes I care not which) - enough to patrol all Canadian choke points.

Ditch the amphibs - replace with ice-strengthened RoRo ferries for Canada's civil fleets. Build more than the civil traffic currently demands an employ on all coasts as a "free" ie government subsidized highway to connect coastal communities. Excess capacity available for short term charter by DND to lift Canadian assets overseas in times of need.

Leave the AOPS build at 6 for the RCN, 2 for the CCG and 16 of the MPV variant that Seaspan is to build for the CCG as well.

Accelerate the build on the 15 CSCs, with 5 of them equipped with the stern door/flex deck configuration of the Absalons to be able to carry a Combat team. The remaining 10 to be ABM capable.

Retain the Kingstons for as long as they are serviceable and replace or expand the fleet.

Ditch the FACs and PTs and build Knud Rasmussens for inshore patrol work. Stanflex modules for 76, SAM and NSMs as well as civvy duties.


And if there is still money, build more convoy escorts.
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.
Sounds like Canadian naval architects need to shake there heads. Also the winches supplied for the ships either poorly speced or poorly built.
 
Was Seaspan responsible or did they build according to specs.? I seem to recall that the last design out of Transport was top heavy. Perhaps they need to go to sea for a few months and discover the meaning of best practices.
 
Was Seaspan responsible or did they build according to specs.? I seem to recall that the last design out of Transport was top heavy. Perhaps they need to go to sea for a few months and discover the meaning of best practices.
I don’t know anything about the fisheries being top heavy. I do know that the the hydrographic ship was a sent back from Seaspan to the original designer for being top heavy.
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.

So we're ready to start building Carriers and Subs then?
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.
Some of the shine coming off Seapan now? I'm not glad, but I'm relieved I don't have to pretend like they are amazing anymore.

They built barges and tugs before. Lots of learning to do.
 
Was Seaspan responsible or did they build according to specs.? I seem to recall that the last design out of Transport was top heavy. Perhaps they need to go to sea for a few months and discover the meaning of best practices.
Seaspan is responsible. Its their design. The "specs" only cover the big portions of the ship. All plumbing, equipment and other systems inside the ship are not part of the "specs". As responsible engineers, they should check and fix any issues that they find.
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.
Engineers, like to bitch about everything. Its not like the CG never saw the plans.
 
Unions and Regulations plus energy costs (this one is newer but government policy to raise the price of energy)
Although Quebec has some of the cheapest energy in the world. That's why it produces energy-intensive aluminium.
Retain the Kingstons
Even in your wildest dreams?! I'd retire those things right this moment if it were in my power. Granted that's probably shortsighted and why such things aren't in my power, but, you get the point :p
 
Even in your wildest dreams?! I'd retire those things right this moment if it were in my power. Granted that's probably shortsighted and why such things aren't in my power, but, you get the point :p
And we'll keep you from having that power ;). Until there is a program building to replace them MCDV's need to stay. They are far too useful.
 
I am hearing a lot of dissatisfaction with reliability and design issues of the 3 Fisheries Vessels built by Seaspan. The engineers are not happy with the design of the engineroom and would like to force the designers to sail in it for awhile and most likely drown them.
Here is a CBC report from a couple day ago that looks at the problem:

Canadian Coast Guard 'monitoring' parts failures in new vessels
Problems included corrosion, premature wear or mislabelling

Paul Withers · CBC News · Posted: Mar 28, 2022 6:00 AM AT | Last Updated: March 28


The Canadian Coast Guard says it is closely monitoring problems affecting components on all three of its new offshore fisheries science vessels.

Two different components — a propulsion shaft tube and valves controlling seawater intake — have needed repair or replacement on coast guard ships John Franklin, Jacques Cartier and John Cabot.
The "class-wide" problems included corrosion, premature wear or mislabelling.

The failure of a third component — a switch that controls motor speed — caused a fire on board the B.C.-based John Franklin and led to a stop-sail order from independent inspectors working on behalf of Transport Canada Marine Safety. The defective controller, known as a variable frequency drive, was found to be an isolated incident.

The Seaspan Shipyard in Vancouver built the ships at a cost of $788 million as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy. The ships entered service between 2019 and 2021, providing fisheries science and monitoring in the Pacific and Atlantic.

"The construction of an entirely new class of vessels is a complex endeavour, and a certain number of challenges with new ships can be expected until they reach and maintain their normal operational service lives," Lindsey McDonald, a spokesperson for the coast guard, said in a statement.
"The Canadian Coast Guard continues to closely monitor this situation."

Seaspan statement

In a statement, Seaspan said the ships are a new class of vessel, and are highly complex and capable.
"And we're proud to see these ships performing well overall," said spokesperson Jo-Anne Dyer.
"As any new ship enters full operation, there may be some issues that need to be addressed and we continue to work closely with our customer, ready to provide support and assistance if and as required."

Newer vessels

The forward and aft propulsion shaft stern tube bearings allow the propeller to turn smoothly. The part has been repaired on CCGS Franklin and CCGS Cabot, which is the newest of the fleet and based in St. John's.

Halifax-based CCGS Cartier will be pulled out of the water next month for a refit. Its propeller shaft tube bearings will be replaced, according to the tender document. The tender closes next week.
"There are signs of premature bearing wear," said McDonald.

Seawater piping and valve failures required part replacements on all three ships. That work has been completed.


There was a report with various potential causes identified, including fluid flow rates, dissimilar metals (galvanic corrosion), and mislabelled valves," McDonald said.

The ships have a one-year warranty after delivery.

Only CCGS Cabot was still under warranty when Seaspan repaired its stern tube bearings in January 2022.

CCGS Franklin was in dry dock for other items last fall and had its stern tube bearings repaired as additional work at a cost of $410,978.53.

'Extremely rare and isolated incident'​

Although the propulsion variable frequency drives fell under an extended material and workmanship warranty, the failure on CCGS Franklin occurred after that warranty had expired.
The starboard variable frequency drive was repaired during the $2.4-million refit.
"An investigation by [Canadian Coast Guard] confirmed this was an extremely rare and isolated incident,' said McDonald.

A failed disconnect switch caused a fire on board CCGS John Franklin. (Canadian Coast Guard)
"Upon investigation, it was determined that the mechanism of failure was extremely rare and there was no evidence to suggest that the same issue existed on the other two vessels."

When the refit was completed in December, the stop-sail order was lifted by the American Bureau of Shipping, which provides regulatory inspections. The ship returned to service in January.

"Ideally this is the kind of thing that doesn't happen, but it's hard to sometimes know exactly what kind of performance you're going to get out of a piece of equipment or some assembly part until you actually put it into a real operational setting," said Dave Perry, a shipbuilding and ship maintenance analyst and vice-president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

'Starting from scratch'​

He likened it to a car parts recall and is not surprised these kinds of problems have surfaced.
"We need to keep in mind with our shipbuilding efforts that we've created this industry and created all of the supply chain going into it basically from scratch," he said.

"You've got a situation where a whole bunch of companies have to provide parts and systems that go into making these ships, and we're putting that whole team together. Basically the Franklin was the first time that that was done for Seaspan."

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