New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[NavyShooter]

I will revisit my response from 2018:

I present my argument from the other thread....


CSC will be cancelled due to the delays, court-cases, and excessive costs (not including any space for overruns)
GOC will contract with ISI to instead build an additional 15 modified AOPS
AOPS design will be modified for last 15 ships to include the new SG-180 upgrade that we just bought for the Halifax class, a slightly upgraded OPS room with a better DLPS (Digital Link) system and an improved armament suite to include a 40mm or 57mm deck gun (preferably 57mm with no ammo hoist - you get the 120 rounds in the mount then have to manually reload) and a set of triple Torp Tubes on each side. For ASW, they'd add the ability to mount a containerized ASW towed array system.


Presto. We have a simplified fleet of 21 ships - all of the same type. It lets them throw a bunch of money at LM as a 'sympathy' response for losing the CSC to enable the redesign of the OPS room and tie in the SG-180.


From the perspective of the RCN - horrible loss of capability.
From the perspective of the GOC - we get the same number of ships, but a lot less cost
From the perspective of the Public - they don't know what we do anyhow, so it's a win win.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I will revisit my response from 2018:

 

[Navy_Pete]

I will revisit my response from 2018:

That would be awful; AOPs has 3 watertight zones compared to 15 in a similarly sized warship.

The plus side to the NSS Umbrella agreements is the cancellation penalties are eye watering, and we're far enough into CSC that canceling it would be massively expensive.

 

[FSTO]

Let us hope our rules of engagement are more amenable than theirs.

My little joke above was due to the fact that ship's don't kill submarines, aircraft do. You have to be a pretty stupid submariner if you are getting within the range of ship launched torpedo and you haven't already taken the ship out with your longer range weapon.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My little joke above was due to the fact that ship's don't kill submarines, aircraft do. You have to be a pretty stupid submariner if you are getting within the range of ship launched torpedo and you haven't already taken the ship out with your longer range weapon.

The torpedo launcher on a ship just makes the crew feel a bit better for 30-60 seconds before the submarine
launched heayweight torpedo breaks the back of the ship and cripples/kills most of the crew.

The only reason it even exists is that they use the same torpedoes as the helicopter, so it is really minimal effort/space/cost to add a launcher. Of course, some COs don’t get the memo…

The amount of times I have watched surface ships race to the datum to try and get the kill (when they should be running at 30kts in the other direction) is mind boogling…

 

[Halifax Tar]

The torpedo launcher on a ship just makes the crew feel a bit better for 30-60 seconds before the submarine
launched heayweight torpedo breaks the back of the ship and cripples/kills most of the crew.

The only reason it even exists is that they use the same torpedoes as the helicopter, so it is really minimal effort/space/cost to add a launcher. Of course, some COs don’t get the memo…

The amount of times I have watched surface ships race to the datum to try and get the kill (when they should be running at 30kts in the other direction) is mind boogling…

So we won't be ramming any U-boats and boarding them for enigma machines in the next war you don't think ?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So we won't be ramming any U-boats and boarding them for enigma machines in the next war you don't think ?

It is one those, ”you probably win a VC, but don’t live to collect it ” moves…

 

[Halifax Tar]

It is one those, ”you probably win a VC, but don’t live to collect it ” moves…

Whats the old saying

Missiles are damage control and torpedoes are survival stations...

 

[Navy_Pete]

The torpedo launcher on a ship just makes the crew feel a bit better for 30-60 seconds before the submarine
launched heayweight torpedo breaks the back of the ship and cripples/kills most of the crew.

The only reason it even exists is that they use the same torpedoes as the helicopter, so it is really minimal effort/space/cost to add a launcher. Of course, some COs don’t get the memo…

The amount of times I have watched surface ships race to the datum to try and get the kill (when they should be running at 30kts in the other direction) is mind boogling…

I always got a chuckle at the sea training DC scenarios that start with a torpedo hit; you aren't bracing for shock you are kissing your ass goodbye.

From first hand experience on a ship shock trial, the impact of even a low level underwater blast is crazy. We saw secondary and tertiary damage across the entire ship, even though we were below the mil spec blast, which is only a fraction of a torpedo. On the plus side, the raft mounted propulsion, gearing and generators all really worked!

For a heavy weight torpedo, would expect anyone below 1 deck to be dead (ie most of the crew at action stations), the ship to break in half, and not optimistic about survival chances for anyone that wasn't killed straight away.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Whats the old saying

Missiles are damage control and torpedoes are survival stations...

Not even.

Both will put what’s left of the crew into rafts, now.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I always got a chuckle at the sea training DC scenarios that start with a torpedo hit; you aren't bracing for shock you are kissing your ass goodbye.

From first hand experience on a ship shock trial, the impact of even a low level underwater blast is crazy. We saw secondary and tertiary damage across the entire ship, even though we were below the mil spec blast, which is only a fraction of a torpedo. On the plus side, the raft mounted propulsion, gearing and generators all really worked!

For a heavy weight torpedo, would expect anyone below 1 deck to be dead (ie most of the crew at action stations), the ship to break in half, and not optimistic about survival chances for anyone that wasn't killed straight away.

Yep. I was on one of the last WUPs where STG dropped diver scare charges overboard to simulate a hit. We weren’t moving very fast, so it kind of slid down the hull and exploded under the hull. We had real world flooding/damage and power failure from about a pound of NEQ.

I also used to laugh at the “hit” causing a fire in the paint locker and a flood in fridge flats…

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yep. I was on one of the last WUPs where STG dropped diver scare charges overboard to simulate a hit. We weren’t moving very fast, so it kind of slid down the hull and exploded under the hull. We had real world flooding/damage and power failure from about a pound of NEQ.

I also used to laugh at the “hit” causing a fire in the paint locker and a flood in fridge flats…

lol that was a famous incident.

Ah STG you so funny lol

Now we just get the XO yelling bang over the broadcast system.

 

[FSTO]

Yep. I was on one of the last WUPs where STG dropped diver scare charges overboard to simulate a hit. We weren’t moving very fast, so it kind of slid down the hull and exploded under the hull. We had real world flooding/damage and power failure from about a pound of NEQ.

I also used to laugh at the “hit” causing a fire in the paint locker and a flood in fridge flats…

SKT you’re just showing your age. Didn't the paint locker fires die with HMCS Annapolis?

 

[NavyShooter]

The last good command team that I sailed with that actually UNDERSTOOD ASW was on CHA in '98.

CO was an air-war guy, so he knew his role...and when we started a CASEX, he simply handed over to the XO (LCdr Woodburn) and let him run with it. We did actual tail ops, got actual contacts, and the tail time was actually GOOD. Slow speeds, no cavitation, getting above and below the layer, regular bathy launches to update info, actually doing TMA! It was great to see the whole system working together.

I'll note that LCdr Woodburn went on to command one of our first Upholders...and he'd already passed the Perisher Course, so he really knew what he was doing.

 

[Spencer100]

I guess this is s dumb question. The new CSC will have the 2 x twim 13 inch torpedo launchers for the Mk54. Why is it that surface ships can not carry the much bigger Mk48? I get the Mk54 matches the helicopter dropped units.

I have not understood this. If the opposing sub has a MK48 or the like and the ship has one too, would then not even things up a bit?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yep. I was on one of the last WUPs where STG dropped diver scare charges overboard to simulate a hit. We weren’t moving very fast, so it kind of slid down the hull and exploded under the hull. We had real world flooding/damage and power failure from about a pound of NEQ.

I also used to laugh at the “hit” causing a fire in the paint locker and a flood in fridge flats…

I think it was on one of the 280s, but they did something similar but it got caught in the netting above the water line and blew a hole into a compartment (think it was an unmanned CSE space). Also heard about them dropping a flare or soemthing into a paper basket in an office, which got out of control and spread to a bunch of paper binders nearby. I think that was on a steamer.

Funnily enough a ship legitimately ran over a sea container last year and damaged the sonar dome, so that one is a real thing.

Stopped trying to pretend the initiating causes of the scenarios were realistic, and after planning it you appreciate sometimes it's hard to come up with a realistic story that meets the goal of different section bases having something to do. But with a collision, you can have remote fires easily enough from wiring shorting as a result of the impact, so not completely off the wall. For the CPF shock trials the blasts were all mid ships, and had a few things happen in the superstructure, way forward and way aft a few hundred feet away from the actual blast.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Dale you just showing your age. Didn't the paint locker fires die with HMCS Annapolis?

We've had a few minor events from paint solvents etc in paint lockers. Fun story, the AOPs fitted system local activation switch is located inside the compartment and signed off by LR as meeting code.

 

[FSTO]

I guess this is s dumb question. The new CSC will have the 2 x twim 13 inch torpedo launchers for the Mk54. Why is it that surface ships can not carry the much bigger Mk48? I get the Mk54 matches the helicopter dropped units.

I have not understood this. If the opposing sub has a MK48 or the like and the ship has one too, would then not even things up a bit?

The Mark 48's (replaced by the Mark 50's) are huge and one would take up a significant amount of the hangar space. And as noted before, there is no reason for a ship to be engaging a submarine like we did in WWII.

 

[NavyShooter]

Mark 48's are truly heavyweight torpedoes.

Compare: (assuming the pasted photo works)

The MK.46 family of torps weighs in at about 500 pounds each. The MK.48 weighs in at over 7 times that at almost 3700 pounds.

The handling gear for a MK.46 is compact and lightweight compared to that of a MK.48 - they're 19 feet long.

And, they still only go at 40+ knots towards a target.

Far better to get some MK.46 in an ASROC like the RUM-139 that can go in a standard MK.41 VLS cell, and engage a target over 20km away, flying at several hundred km/h on the way, then dropping very close on top of the submarine contact (hopefully).

RUM-139 VL-ASROC vertical launched anti submarine rocket

The MK.46 surface launch version gives effectively very little stand-off. If you're firing one from the ship's tubes, you're already well within the submarine's range to kill you.

With the VLS, you'd be at the edge of the sub's range (maybe) and can fire on a contact that has little idea that you've fired at it until a torp splashes into the water right above it. Making it somewhat harder to evade.

Maybe.

 

[GK .Dundas]

One the reasons we bought the ASROC in the early to mid sixties was you couldn't always have a Sea King handy. It gave you more reach then the Mk 32 launcher or Limbo.
And let's be honest do you really want to be that close to use either.