New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Kirkhill]

http://frontline-defence.com/index_archives.php?page=2252

Re-initiated as the JSS Project under NSPS in 2010, the RCN eventually (June 2013) chose the German Berlin Class (Hull #3 BONN) by Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) as a suitable design, however, a great deal of Canadianization will be required to meet the RCN’s needs. BMT Canada and Alion have been involved in high level design work and the Canadianization requirements.

As per the NSPS direction for non-combatant ships, Seaspan Shipyards will build the two JSS. Seaspan and Alion have been awarded some further Phase I design work contracts, and Thales Canada has been chosen to do the Combat Systems Integration (CSI) work for non-combatants.

Like AOPS, JSS will be built largely to commercial specifications. It is believed that Seaspan uses Det Norske Veritas / Germanischer Lloyd (DNV GL) as the Class by Builder Classification Society. A statement of work is under development within DND to engage in a competitive bid process for a Classification Society contract for the support of the Non-Combatant vessels.

Is it possible to verify this Frontline article?

Here's the gen on the AOPS from the same article

Although listed in the NSPS combatant ships category assigned to Irving, the AOPS vessels will be built largely to commercial standards to reduce costs. DND is in the process of entering into a sole source contract with Lloyd’s Register Canada Limited (LRCL) for combatant vessels, including AOPS. An Advance Contract Award Notice was posted to the Government of Canada Buy and Sell web page recently. Production designs are currently being completed by Irving, with the assistance of OMT, and recent (Jan 2015) conversations with AOPS Project staff indicate that procurement of equipment for that project is well underway.

 

[Good2Golf]

...So far we're up to $370 million for a used, bastardized ship.  Seem like a good deal to anyone?  There will probably also be challenges from all the other shipyards that could have done this work that wasn't put out for solicitation that will cost us (taxpayers) a lot of money.  Also there will probably be a lot of hidden costs that we eat in our operational budgets, plus the actual lease costs.

This is politics at its worst.

:dunno:

Well, we spent $292M to FMS buy six 38 to 42 year-old CH-47Ds to bridge until the CH-147Fs came on line and they provided a capability.  When the Queenstons come on line, the case for an interim capability will cede to the history books and we'll all move on.  A big AOR being $80M more than six helicopters we flew for 18 months in a small single area of operations doesn't actually seem horrible...am I missing something?  ???

Regards
G2G

 

[Kirkhill]

JSS is supposed to be on line (IOC of first vessel) in 2019.

When is the Davie ship supposed to be ready?  How long is the gap?

 

[jmt18325]

JSS is supposed to be on line (IOC of first vessel) in 2019.

If that's still the date, it's a pipe dream.

The Government of Canada recently awarded a build contract for the OFSV to Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards. The yard will deliver three of these vessels to the Canadian Coast Guard under a ceiling price of $514 million. MP Saxton also announced that the first ship, to be delivered in the spring of 2017, will be named CCGS Sir John Franklin in honour of the Arctic explorer

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=990919

That's ship 1 of job 1.  That means there's still the OOSV to go and then the JSS starts production.

 

[Navy_Pete]

:dunno:

Well, we spent $292M to FMS buy six 38 to 42 year-old CH-47Ds to bridge until the CH-147Fs came on line and they provided a capability.  When the Queenstons come on line, the case for an interim capability will cede to the history books and we'll all move on.  A big AOR being $80M more than six helicopters we flew for 18 months in a small single area of operations doesn't actually seem horrible...am I missing something?  ???

Regards
G2G

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-17127488
The Royal Navy has chosen South Korean firm Daewoo for a £452m deal to build four new fuel tankers....

That was back in 2012.  They actually had to pay Daewoo to delay delivery so they could get people trained up.  If we wanted a new capability in a short time frame, we could have done something similar.  Or picked up the USN fast tankers for a song (or a lease with the sequestration cuts tying them up).  We could have done all kinds of things to get an AOR capability now, for far less then the Davie deal, where it wouldn't have been an unproven design.

Your example as buying old Chinooks and using them as is.  This is more like buying a different kind of helicopter, paying a lot of money to convert them to do something similar to the Chinooks using an unproven retrofit design, and hoping they provide the same capability.  Apples and oranges.  It's not a terrible option, but there are lots of other, better, faster, more reliable options that have been ignored for the last several years.

If this wasn't a shipyard in QC, it wouldn't even be on the table.  If it wasn't an election starting, it wouldn't have gotten any kind of preliminary LOI.  This is such obvious pandering to the electorate in a region where the ruling govt is trying to make gains based on promises that they may do something, eventually, if they get reelected, to get a capability (eventually), that exists only on paper, that they could have already filled the gap for YEARS ago when the initial JSS RFP went sideways because of how ridiculous the system is.  And it's going to waste a lot of taxpayer money for what is most likely going to be a canceled contract and a quiet payout down the road.

 

[Good2Golf]

My point was actually more about the amount of money spent to provide an interim capability that you seemed to have the issue with.  I acknowledge the D-models were "[well] off the shelf" and that ASTERIX will require substantive mods, but the RCN or DND or GoC not getting things done right in the past is history, and while the lessons associated with ALSC/JSS shouldn't be ignored, we are where we are now and it seems like something is needed now.  If QUEENSTON could happen tomorrow, great.  Do you think VSY is capable of doing that to provide QUEENSTON on the same timelines that Davie can modify ASTERIX, and if so, what would happen to OSFV, AOPS, Polar, etc...?

Regards
G2G

 

[Furniture]

It's just not cost effective and a bad use of taxpayer money.    And may or may not get any real capability, all just to buy some votes in QC.

This would have been a good decision in 2013.  Or 2011.  It's not like the AORs suddenly got to be 45 years old, this was a known problem that was exacerbated by the govt funding cuts to DND.

It seems to me to be a better use of money than having tankers from developing or financially unstable countries loaned to us so that we can conduct our duties at home. I'm sure you can agree with me that it's downright embarrasing to have Chile and Spain sending tankers to our ports because we as one of the richest countries in the world can't fuel our own boats underway.

Even if Resolve can only liquid RAS in "safe" waters we are far ahead of where we are now.

 

[ringo]

FGS Bonn not Bohn

IMHO we will be lucky to get 10 CSC.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Tweet:

OMX
‏@offsetmarket

@Mark3Ds OMX and @chantierdavie will be disclosing Canadian Content details in coming months.
https://twitter.com/offsetmarket/status/632724871437524992

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

FGS Bonn not Bohn

IMHO we will be lucky to get 10 CSC.

I would agree that we'll get somewhere between 8 and 12, and never 15.  That is, after all, the general trend around the world.

 

[suffolkowner]

I would have gone Davie and only Davie right from the start.
I think we can expect the three tribal replacements to be around $4 billion each; witness Australia's costs. Thats 12 billion out of a $26 billion budget, leaving $14 billion for 12 remaining ships. Not likely especially given the inflation deficit between Finance and the military. Currently  running at -2% a year(?). Probably time to completely reevaluate the goals.

 

[Underway]

I would agree that we'll get somewhere between 8 and 12, and never 15.  That is, after all, the general trend around the world.

You're assuming that they are a block build and then stop.  I'm assuming that they will just keep building ships forever because that's what the whole plan is for, just keep continuously building ships.  Like Areigh Burke, flights.... just keep modding the flights. 

So CSC flight 1 will be 4 AAW Destroyers,  flight 2 will actually be a different ship class the general purpose destroyer which will take us up to 8-9, flight 3 lessons learned from flight 3 makes us up to 12-15.

Then the new build CSC mark 2 which is 4 AAW Destroyers again and we get rid of the original CSC AAW destroyers, because midlife refits are really expensive when you might as well get a new ship.

 

[jmt18325]

You're assuming that they are a block build and then stop.  I'm assuming that they will just keep building ships forever because that's what the whole plan is for, just keep continuously building ships.  Like Areigh Burke, flights.... just keep modding the flights. 

So CSC flight 1 will be 4 AAW Destroyers,  flight 2 will actually be a different ship class the general purpose destroyer which will take us up to 8-9, flight 3 lessons learned from flight 3 makes us up to 12-15.

Then the new build CSC mark 2 which is 4 AAW Destroyers again and we get rid of the original CSC AAW destroyers, because midlife refits are really expensive when you might as well get a new ship.

If that happens, I'll be impressed.

 

[Underway]

If that happens, I'll be impressed.

Thats the plan, and if they don't remember... votes in Halifax count on it, no matter the party.  That's a good motivator when you actually have a military industrial complex.  Which only exists in Canada in places like London.

 

[CougarKing]

An update on PROJECT RESOLVE:

Navy Recognition

L-3 MAPPS Selected by Chantier Davie Canada and Project Resolve for the
Royal Canadian Navy’s Interim Auxiliary Oil Replenishment (iAOR) Provision of Service

Saturday, 12 September 2015 09:00

L-3 MAPPS announced today that Chantier Davie Canada Inc. and Project Resolve Inc. have selected its Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS) for the conversion of the container vessel M.V. Asterix into an Auxiliary Oil Replenishment (AOR) ship for the Royal Canadian Navy’s (RCN) interim supply ship capability. Civilian container vessel M.V. Asterix will be converted into an Auxiliary Oil Replenishment (AOR) ship for the Royal Canadian Navy’s interim supply ship capability. Picture: Chantier Davie

“L-3 MAPPS is a recognized world leader in automation for naval vessels built to commercial marine as well as military standards and has extensive experience in ship upgrades for customers worldwide,” said Rangesh Kasturi, president of L-3 MAPPS. “We are pleased to be chosen by Chantier Davie and Project Resolve for this innovative project to support the RCN’s urgent requirements and we look forward to the implementation contract being finalized shortly. We have been very impressed with the ‘Team Canada’ approach for the project and are looking forward to making our contribution.”

“Project Resolve will provide the RCN with a critically important replenishment at-sea capability,” said Spencer Fraser, chief executive officer of Project Resolve Inc. “We are extremely proud to have assembled a pan-Canadian supply chain that will feature ‘best-of-breed’ naval technologies developed and produced here at home by Canadian personnel. L-3 MAPPS is a trusted partner with a fantastic pedigree of supporting the RCN and exporting Canadian naval technology worldwide. The company will be bringing a very modern and proven capability to our iAOR solution.”

L-3 MAPPS announced today that Chantier Davie Canada Inc. and Project Resolve Inc. have selected its Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS) for the conversion of the container vessel M.V. Asterix into an Auxiliary Oil Replenishment (AOR) ship for the Royal Canadian Navy’s (RCN) interim supply ship capability. Computer rendering of the vessel after conversion. Picture: Chantier Davie

Using technology pioneered in Canada, the L-3 MAPPS IPMS provides comprehensive monitoring and control of a ship’s propulsion, electrical, ancillary, auxiliary and damage control machinery systems. With advanced functionality, such as the Battle Damage Control System, Onboard Team Training System, Equipment Health Monitoring System and CCTV, as well as integration with the ship’s combat management and navigation systems, the IPMS allows the crew to safely and effectively operate the ship for all mission requirements. L-3 MAPPS’ technology is used by 18 navies worldwide and is installed on most of the RCN’s major warships and submarines. The company also provides advanced Safety Management Systems for some of the world’s newest and largest cruise ships and naval auxiliary vessels.

 

[Edward Campbell]

CTV News suggests, in a report that, at least, the surface combatant portion and, maybe, the entire shipbuilding strategy is very high risk in economic, industrial and capability terms.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm puzzled as to why Trudeau referred to the ice breaker as a Defence ship, isn't the Diefenbaker going to be a CGS, not a HMCS?

 

[McG]

CTV News suggests, in a report that, at least, the surface combatant portion and, maybe, the entire shipbuilding strategy is very high risk in economic, industrial and capability terms.

In text here:

Canada's biggest-ever military procurement at 'very high risk,' documents suggest
CTV News
With files from CTV News' Mercedes Stephenson
20 Sep 2015

Documents obtained by CTV News suggest that the Conservative government's plan to overhaul the Royal Canadian Navy with a multi-billion dollar procurement to replace frigates and destroyers may be in trouble.

According to internal documents obtained by CTV News' Mercedes Stephenson, the "Canadian Surface Combatant" program is at "very high risk" of running over budget, behind schedule, lacking skilled manpower, and producing inadequate capabilities.

The documents warn there is a risk the project, "may be unable to deliver the optimal number of ships with the capabilities necessary to meet operational requirements" and that may, in turn, lead to the navy's "inability to deliver operational effect and/or a failed procurement."

With its $26B price tag, the program is considered the "crown jewel" in the government's National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.

Sources tell CTV News that a fixed budget, combined with increasing costs and procurement delays, mean the navy has likely already lost one or two of the promised 15 ships.

Consequences of failing to deliver the ships on time include the potential inability to protect Canadian coastlines and engage in such international operations as tracking drug smugglers or terrorists at sea.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canada-s-biggest-ever-military-procurement-at-very-high-risk-documents-suggest-1.2572855

 

[suffolkowner]

I'm puzzled as to why Trudeau referred to the ice breaker as a Defence ship, isn't the Diefenbaker going to be a CGS, not a HMCS?

Probably confusing with AOPS or maybe going back to the original intention of armed heavy icebreakers

 

[suffolkowner]

http://gentleseas.blogspot.ca/2015/09/australias-90-billion-naval.html

A link to some info on Australia's own shipbuilding plans. In comparison to ours the numbers are similar minus the subs