New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[dapaterson]

How would we move them from Saskatche....oh....sorry.

The Last Saskatchewan Pirate enters the conversation.

 

[Rainbow1910]

The Multirole CCG ships will replace the 1100 Class and will be twice the tonnage and better ice class. In fact the CCG might actually find they need a few smaller buoytenders to get into places the bigger ships can't. At some point you will want to replace the AP1-88/400 Hovercraft, with newer versions of them with 4 for the west and east coast. and likley 2 more for the Arctic. That will mean a hanger, apron, accommodations up North. Rotate crews in during the open water seasons and slowly buildup the skillsets to have them manned and maintained by Northerners.

The CCG also has the Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel which will provide 6 vessels for these various duties that the larger Multi-Purpose Vessels might struggle in the littorals. These ships are under 1,000t and will be built by a non-NSS yard.

The Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel project seeks 6 vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard. The primary mission of these vessels is to aid in core functions of the Canadian Coast Guard, including: navigation, ice-breaking capability, ecosystems and marine science activities, hydrographic missions, in addition to search and rescue services.

An idea of what these kinds of ships might look like.

Few thoughts.

Davie can beat the Seaspan timeline for a few reasons. First is that their build isn't as complicated as the Seapan one. Second they don't have any of their workforce diverted to building other ships (just converting) like JSS, JSS2, OOSV and somesuch. Which means Davie can start right now. Third, yes having Finland in their pocket is extremely helpful, not only because a third of it being built overseas reduces timelines by (does math) a third at least, having the Finish expertise to show them the way will reduce mistakes, do overs and design time.

I'm ok with Davie showing some icebreaking competition. Our full suite of ship requirements for the governement fleets cannot be done by only two yards unfortunately, this speeds things up significantly.

Not necessarily; Davie is running pretty full out doing the DWP, and needs to retool a bit to build the icebreakers that size efficiently.

VSY and VSL are different yards at different locations, so Seaspan isn't splitting resources between build and DWPs.

The Polar icebreakers have also been on the go for a while at Seaspan so things like produciton engineering and planning is already progress, while Davie would be starting from scratch, so lots of things Davie is working against but none of that makes good soundbites.

I am a bit hesitant to say Davie can or will beat Seaspan to commissioning the first Polar Icebreaker for the CCG, for a few reasons. I would take Davie's claims on a 2030 delivery with a grain of salt, even given their help from Helsinki here. Davie commonly makes outlandish claims and is rarely called out on them, especially given their track record cannot be leaned upon at all here. Seaspan is supposed 2 years behind than Davie/Helsinki (2030 vs 2032 delivery), even though they've already started physical prototype module work, the design is largely finished and full rate production will begin in April.

Kanadan hallitus tilasi 10 miljardilla jäänmurtajia ja hävittäjiä - Navigator Magazine

Väistyvän liberaalien Justin Trudeaun hallitus tilasi viimeisinä päivinään jäänmurtajia ja hävittäjiä kotimaisilta Kanadan telakoilta yli 9 miljardin euron arvosta.

navigatormagazine.fi

This recent article paints Helsinki itself in a less favorable light.

Davie reports that the Quebec administration is providing 519 million CAD (332 million euro) funding as part of a total investment of 840 million CAD (540 million euro). In practice, Davie cannot manufacture the hull of a new polar breaker in Canada from a production-economic point of view until new investments have been made. Therefore, it has had to acquire the Helsinki shipyard. However, the challenge for the Helsinki shipyard is that its steel block manufacturing facilities in Hernesaari have already been demolished and the shipyard is thus completely dependent on block procurement from other parts of the Baltic Sea. In the Baltics, Poland and Germany, however, the capacity utilisation rate is currently very high, which may delay the schedule of hull assembly in Helsinki. The total need is probably nearly 10,000 tonnes of steel blocks or a complete frame, which was, for example, Meyer Turku's plan for the UVL 2025 project.

So, Davie might not have their Lévis Shipyard entirely up to task to even handle such a large, complex and expensive vessel at this point, or any point in the near future. Helsinki is having issues with block fabrication and more generally with this shipyard, that is why Davie swooped in and purchased it after a lot of their Russian work dried up following the invasion of Ukraine. Helsinki can have all of the on paper experience they want but if their yard isn't up to the task, it matters not. Media claims have said a 30%/70% split is happening between Helsinki and Davie respectively, so how are they going to square all of this to beat Seaspan, who is already started on their Polar? Colour me skeptical.

So my next question is the Canadian Patrol Corvettes are going to be built by who? Irving has not capacity, Seapan is busy for years that leaves... Davie or smaller yards in Ontario. Or perhaps a combo of them.

Or we go overseas and do it Dutch style, combat systems in Canada, hulls from Romania/ Korea

If I recall correctly, Topshee has been pretty open about the CMMC being something dome domestically. Considering Irving is the only yard allowed to deal with combatants within the scope of the NSS alongside the 1,000t cutoff for smaller yards, I'd project something like Irving/Seaspan/Davie partnering (sub-contracting?) with Ontario Shipyards (Former Heddle) to deliver the boats. If they really needed them on the sort of schedule required, the first few ships might need to have their hulls built abroad and shipped here to be fitted out.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The CCG also has the Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel which will provide 6 vessels for these various duties that the larger Multi-Purpose Vessels might struggle in the littorals. These ships are under 1,000t and will be built by a non-NSS yard.

The Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel project seeks 6 vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard. The primary mission of these vessels is to aid in core functions of the Canadian Coast Guard, including: navigation, ice-breaking capability, ecosystems and marine science activities, hydrographic missions, in addition to search and rescue services.

An idea of what these kinds of ships might look like.

Totally forgot about these. Thank you. 600DWT smaller but very similar to the Bartlett, sort of like the old Sir James Douglas which was 564ton

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Hey! I didn't know the Coast Guard had Gate Vessels.

 

[Swampbuggy]

So my next question is the Canadian Patrol Corvettes are going to be built by who? Irving has not capacity, Seapan is busy for years that leaves... Davie or smaller yards in Ontario. Or perhaps a combo of them.

Or we go overseas and do it Dutch style, combat systems in Canada, hulls from Romania/ Korea

Maybe the first 2-4 hulls built in SK, then fitted out here, but with some kind of further partnership between one of our current yards and Hyundai, for instance, to build the rest here. It would be sweet to see that included in a whole pitch from SK that already has tanks, artillery, missile batteries, subs and possibly some kind of IFV, not to mention fighter trainers.

If they’re serious about wanting to get into various military production JV’s with Canada and are providing full IP transfer/access, I think it would be a mistake to not cast as wide a net as possib regarding scope of equipment.

 

[GR66]

Maybe the first 2-4 hulls built in SK, then fitted out here, but with some kind of further partnership between one of our current yards and Hyundai, for instance, to build the rest here. It would be sweet to see that included in a whole pitch from SK that already has tanks, artillery, missile batteries, subs and possibly some kind of IFV, not to mention fighter trainers.

If they’re serious about wanting to get into various military production JV’s with Canada and are providing full IP transfer/access, I think it would be a mistake to not cast as wide a net as possib regarding scope of equipment.

As far as the Canadian Multi-Mission Corvette goes to be honest I think the stated requirements are mission creep on steroids. I don't see how they can squeeze everything they say they want on a 1,000+ ton ship and a crew of 40.

A more reasonable approach (if you want to partner with SK) might be something like HHI's HDP-1500 NEO patrol ship.

81m (so will fit in the existing Halifax-class berths)
1,500 ton
21kts (+6kts improvement over the Kingston-class)
5,500nm range and 28 day endurance
Crew of 41
Flight deck for UAV's or utility helicopter (up to 6-ton)
40mm to 76mm main gun
Spot for 2 x SSM launchers on topside
Likely room for self defence SAM's like RAM there as well
Multi-mission module for 2-4 x 20' containers
Doesn't have the strike-length VLS that is desired but could possibly have containerized launchers on the flight deck?

Something like this would maybe be a half-way compromise between a true Kingston-class replacement and the all-singing, all-dancing CMMC that is being proposed.

 

[Kirkhill]

The CCG also has the Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel which will provide 6 vessels for these various duties that the larger Multi-Purpose Vessels might struggle in the littorals. These ships are under 1,000t and will be built by a non-NSS yard.

The Mid-Shore Multi-Mission Vessel project seeks 6 vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard. The primary mission of these vessels is to aid in core functions of the Canadian Coast Guard, including: navigation, ice-breaking capability, ecosystems and marine science activities, hydrographic missions, in addition to search and rescue services.

An idea of what these kinds of ships might look like.




I am a bit hesitant to say Davie can or will beat Seaspan to commissioning the first Polar Icebreaker for the CCG, for a few reasons. I would take Davie's claims on a 2030 delivery with a grain of salt, even given their help from Helsinki here. Davie commonly makes outlandish claims and is rarely called out on them, especially given their track record cannot be leaned upon at all here. Seaspan is supposed 2 years behind than Davie/Helsinki (2030 vs 2032 delivery), even though they've already started physical prototype module work, the design is largely finished and full rate production will begin in April.

Kanadan hallitus tilasi 10 miljardilla jäänmurtajia ja hävittäjiä - Navigator Magazine

Väistyvän liberaalien Justin Trudeaun hallitus tilasi viimeisinä päivinään jäänmurtajia ja hävittäjiä kotimaisilta Kanadan telakoilta yli 9 miljardin euron arvosta.

navigatormagazine.fi

This recent article paints Helsinki itself in a less favorable light.



So, Davie might not have their Lévis Shipyard entirely up to task to even handle such a large, complex and expensive vessel at this point, or any point in the near future. Helsinki is having issues with block fabrication and more generally with this shipyard, that is why Davie swooped in and purchased it after a lot of their Russian work dried up following the invasion of Ukraine. Helsinki can have all of the on paper experience they want but if their yard isn't up to the task, it matters not. Media claims have said a 30%/70% split is happening between Helsinki and Davie respectively, so how are they going to square all of this to beat Seaspan, who is already started on their Polar? Colour me skeptical.


If I recall correctly, Topshee has been pretty open about the CMMC being something dome domestically. Considering Irving is the only yard allowed to deal with combatants within the scope of the NSS alongside the 1,000t cutoff for smaller yards, I'd project something like Irving/Seaspan/Davie partnering (sub-contracting?) with Ontario Shipyards (Former Heddle) to deliver the boats. If they really needed them on the sort of schedule required, the first few ships might need to have their hulls built abroad and shipped here to be fitted out.

With respect to the Davie Polar Icebreaker.

The basis for the breaker proposed by Davie is the ARC 148 concept developed by Aker Arctic and the Helsinki shipyard for Norilsk Nickel in 2021, a design for a ship that had already been ordered once,

So the one at Helsinki Shipyard must be built on whatever was completed on the Aker ARC 148 with hull no. 519 for Norilsk Nickel that was cancelled due to sanction against Russia

Canadian Coast Guard, Bygg nr. ? og 519 ved Seaspan Shipyard og Davie/Helsinki Shipyard, VARD 9 206 POLAR MAX Icebreaker "CCGS Arpatuuq" & "TBN"

Vard Marine Wins Canadian Coast Guard Concept Exploration Contract Vard Marine is pleased to announce that we have been awarded an engineering services contract for concept exploration with the Canadian Coast Guard. The contract will focus on the Coast Guard’s future fleet renewal program. The...

skipsfarts-forum.net

As of Jan 18, 2022 Aker was announcing that they had successfully completed contracts for the main machinery for the Norilsk Nickel icebreaker based on the ARC 148 and had successfully tested the hull model.

Norilsk Nickel, Bygg nr. 519 ved Helsinki Shipyard, Aker ARC 148 'TBN"

https://akerarctic.fi/en/news/new-icebreaker-for-norilsk-nickel/

skipsfarts-forum.net

And then February 2022 happened and by October 2022

Helsinki Shipyard 's contract to build the largest and most powerful icebreaker ever made in Finland has collapsed because it has been denied a license to export it to the buyer, Russian metals and mining giant Norilsk Nickel (Nornickel).

Helsinki Shipyard announced the Finnish Ministry of Foreign Affair gave it a “negative decision” regarding the export license for the icebreaker, which was ordered by Norilsk Nickel in January. The export license was crucial to allow the shipbuilder to transfer the icebreaker to its new owner.

Though the export of icebreakers to Russia is banned due to European Union sanctions, Helsinki Shipyard was hoping for an exemption with a positive decision.

Denial of the export license ultimately means that Helsinki Shipyard will not start construction of the vessel at the Hietalahti shipyard, which had already been pushed back to 2023. Helsinki Shipyard has been undertaking preliminary works since late last year, awaiting the Finnish authorities' decision on the export license. The vessel, designed to operate in northern Siberia, was expected to be delivered to Norilsk Nickel in 2025 ahead of the winter season.

Finland Blocks Helsinki Shipyard's Russian Icebreaker Project

Helsinki Shipyard 's contract to build the largest and most powerful icebreaker ever made in Finland has collapsed because it has been denied a li...

maritime-executive.com

So it appears they have a validated design, some of the major bits and pieces as well as some other "preliminary works". As well they have a work force familiar with the hulls and plant.

It wouldn't surprise me if Davie replicated their Asterix programme and brought the hull and machinery over to Davie and then married it on site with Finnish cabins.

But in order to meet the federal government's delivery date of fall 2017, the company has contracted with Almaco, a major builder of accommodations in the offshore industry.

The company is building a major portion of the superstructure for the MV Asterix at a shipyard in Rauma, Finland.

There are conflicting accounts as to precisely how much the offshore contract is worth.

Alex Vicefield, chairman of the Davie yard and CEO of its parent company Inocea, was quoted in a trade publication saying that the Finnish subcontract was worth between US $70 million and US $100 million. ($94 million to $134 million Cdn).

But Spencer Fraser, CEO of the company in charge of the project, Federal Fleet Services, pegged the deal at closer to US $44 million ($60 million Cdn).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/leased-navy-ship-1.3909874

IIRC there was a video of them moving the entire superstructure from the dock onto the hull in drydock. Can't find it now.

This would also explain why there are two designs, one for Seaspan and one for Davie.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If I recall correctly, Topshee has been pretty open about the CMMC being something dome domestically. Considering Irving is the only yard allowed to deal with combatants within the scope of the NSS alongside the 1,000t cutoff for smaller yards, I'd project something like Irving/Seaspan/Davie partnering (sub-contracting?) with Ontario Shipyards (Former Heddle) to deliver the boats. If they really needed them on the sort of schedule required, the first few ships might need to have their hulls built abroad and shipped here to be fitted out.

Just FYI, the 1000 tonne cutoff means the NSS yards are excluded from bidding, and that is based on a shipyard survey at the time where there were a number of smaller yards capable of doing that work that couldn't scale up to take on the bigger ships. Add on vessels don't automatically go with the same work package based on combatant/non-combatant, but expect MCDV replacement to also be built to commercial standards vice combatant.

AOPS and JSS are both non-combatants built to commercial standards, and JSS actually has a citadel which AOPs doesn't which is more of a major capability with more complex design integration compared to slapping on a small gun, so wouldn't get too wrapped up about which goes where.

 

[Underway]

As far as the Canadian Multi-Mission Corvette goes to be honest I think the stated requirements are mission creep on steroids. I don't see how they can squeeze everything they say they want on a 1,000+ ton ship and a crew of 40.

A more reasonable approach (if you want to partner with SK) might be something like HHI's HDP-1500 NEO patrol ship.

81m (so will fit in the existing Halifax-class berths)
1,500 ton
21kts (+6kts improvement over the Kingston-class)
5,500nm range and 28 day endurance
Crew of 41
Flight deck for UAV's or utility helicopter (up to 6-ton)
40mm to 76mm main gun
Spot for 2 x SSM launchers on topside
Likely room for self defence SAM's like RAM there as well
Multi-mission module for 2-4 x 20' containers
Doesn't have the strike-length VLS that is desired but could possibly have containerized launchers on the flight deck?

Something like this would maybe be a half-way compromise between a true Kingston-class replacement and the all-singing, all-dancing CMMC that is being proposed.

So the 1000 tons is I think a mis-speak number or is a minimum. The maximum size they can be is 105m long. Warships approaching that length are about 2500-3000 tons. Looking around the Gowind class is a good ballpark ship.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Agreed. The Gowind 2500 is right in that ball park, and a good example of what could be achieved. And I can think of two, maybe even three yards other than the NSS ones that could upgrade quickly to build them - attracting and training up the workforce could be a different matter, especially without raiding the NSS yards, but upgrading the yards could be done fairly quickly.

 

[Kirkhill]

Corvette

640 tonnes

72.7 m (238 ft 6 in)

10.4 m (34 ft 1 in)

2.4 m (7 ft 10 in)

CODOG 2 × 125SII Kamewa Waterjets 4 × Vericor TF50A gas turbines, total rating 16 MW[2] 2 × MTU Friedrichshafen 16 V 2000 N90 diesel engines, total rating 2.6 MW 3 × generators of 270kW each

35 knots (65 km/h; 40 mph)+

2,500 nmi (4,600 km; 2,900 mi) at 15 kn (28 km/h; 17 mph)

43

Saab 9LV combat management system Saab Sea GIRAFFE AMB 3D PESA surveillance radar Saab Ceros 200 stealth fire control radar system Condor CS-3701 tactical radar surveillance system GDC Hull-mounted sonar Hydroscience Technologies towed array sonar system GDC variable depth sonar

Rheinmetall TKWA/MASS (Multi Ammunition Softkill System)

1 × Bofors 57 mm (2.2 in) Mk3 gun 8 × RBS15 Mk2 anti-ship missiles 4 × 400 mm (16 in) torpedo launchers for Torped 45 torpedoes CAMM anti-air missiles ASW 127 mm (5.0 in) rocket-powered grenade launchers Mines and depth charges

AW109 helicopter pad

[td]Type[/td] [td]Displacement[/td] [td]Length[/td] [td]Beam[/td] [td]Draught[/td] [td]Propulsion[/td] [td]Speed[/td] [td]Range[/td] [td]Complement[/td] [td]Sensors and
processing systems[/td] [td]Electronic warfare
& decoys[/td] [td]Armament[/td] [td]Aviation facilities[/td]

Corvette - Says so on the label.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Just FYI, the 1000 tonne cutoff means the NSS yards are excluded from bidding, and that is based on a shipyard survey at the time where there were a number of smaller yards capable of doing that work that couldn't scale up to take on the bigger ships. Add on vessels don't automatically go with the same work package based on combatant/non-combatant, but expect MCDV replacement to also be built to commercial standards vice combatant.

AOPS and JSS are both non-combatants built to commercial standards, and JSS actually has a citadel which AOPs doesn't which is more of a major capability with more complex design integration compared to slapping on a small gun, so wouldn't get too wrapped up about which goes where.

I was under the impression that the NSS rules were set out in a way that non-NSS yards get vessels of 1,000t or less, while anything over that limit MUST go to one of the three NSS yards? As far as combatants go, I was also under the assumption that only Irving was permitted to build "combatants" under the NSS? If CMMC is following the kind of arrangement that Topshee and the program seemingly wants, seems pretty clear that a corvette falls under a combatant?

 

[Underway]

I honestly don't think it matters. They'll just change the rules to suit whatever the situation makes either political or build sense. They already did that with adding Davie.

 

[ringo]

Finnish Pohjanmaa 1A ice class corvette, interesting vessel.

 

[PrairieFella]

Finnish Pohjanmaa 1A ice class corvette, interesting vessel.

Cool ship but a little big, no? 73 man crew.

 

[Maxman1]

Cool ship but a little big, no? 73 man crew.

Yes and no. I think we've all realised the crew size of 40 was unrealistic for the capabilities they're asking. Plus it depends on how the Finnish Navy's crewing matches up to ours, and whether they have situations like three people doing a job we would have one person do.

 

[Underway]

Yah there are a bunch of CMC stats out there that don't line up. 40 pers, strike length VLS, 1000 tons, 105m long, proper warship with self defence capability...

Some of these circles do not overlap with each other very well or at all. But eventually things will line up and we'll get something.

I expect crew of 65 pers, 90m long, ~2500 tons. 8 strike length VLS, towed array sonar system, small helo or UAV flight deck and hangar, 57mm, SMART radar, CMS 330, single Fire Control Radar. Speed ~25 knots, CODAD engineering arrangement.

 

[Furniture]

Yah there are a bunch of CMC stats out there that don't line up. 40 pers, strike length VLS, 1000 tons, 105m long, proper warship with self defence capability...

Some of these circles do not overlap with each other very well or at all. But eventually things will line up and we'll get something.

I expect crew of 65 pers, 90m long, ~2500 tons. 8 strike length VLS, towed array sonar system, small helo or UAV flight deck and hangar, 57mm, SMART radar, CMS 330, single Fire Control Radar. Speed ~25 knots, CODAD engineering arrangement.

I believe the CRCN or someone else senior already clarified that the CMMC will not have a flight deck/hangar for helo ops.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Yah there are a bunch of CMC stats out there that don't line up. 40 pers, strike length VLS, 1000 tons, 105m long, proper warship with self defence capability...

Some of these circles do not overlap with each other very well or at all. But eventually things will line up and we'll get something.

I expect crew of 65 pers, 90m long, ~2500 tons. 8 strike length VLS, towed array sonar system, small helo or UAV flight deck and hangar, 57mm, SMART radar, CMS 330, single Fire Control Radar. Speed ~25 knots, CODAD engineering arrangement.

Sounds like a pretty robust little ship. So SMART radar, does that mean ASW weapons as well? Any need for a 30mm DSO30m as well?

 

[suffolkowner]

Yah there are a bunch of CMC stats out there that don't line up. 40 pers, strike length VLS, 1000 tons, 105m long, proper warship with self defence capability...

Some of these circles do not overlap with each other very well or at all. But eventually things will line up and we'll get something.

I expect crew of 65 pers, 90m long, ~2500 tons. 8 strike length VLS, towed array sonar system, small helo or UAV flight deck and hangar, 57mm, SMART radar, CMS 330, single Fire Control Radar. Speed ~25 knots, CODAD engineering arrangement.

Seems like a Halifax replacement more than a Kingston replacement