New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Underway]

I think the Orca replacement is definitely a relatively easy procurement if we can keep scope creep and peoples fingers out of it, make the required improvements from the feedback/issues found with the Orca's and produce an effective design.

The Orca procurement itself was straightforward and came in under budget and on time.

Changes I would recommend would be to get rid of the stupid troll gear and change the hull form to reduce wake. That leads to a lot of issues.

Size is pretty good, bridge is great, common room is good, galley maybe not the best location but it's pretty good.

I would go with two Xband radars and caterpillar diesels again.

 

[GR66]

The Orca procurement itself was straightforward and came in under budget and on time.

Changes I would recommend would be to get rid of the stupid troll gear and change the hull form to reduce wake. That leads to a lot of issues.

Size is pretty good, bridge is great, common room is good, galley maybe not the best location but it's pretty good.

I would go with two Xband radars and caterpillar diesels again.

Your suggestions have been noted and included in the RFI.

The RCN RFI:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I've heard that the Orca fleets is absolutely beat as with much of the existing fleet, although even more so given the abuse put upon them by constant trainee operations.

There is still a couple of the YAG's still going, so I expect the Orcas would sell and be used for charters or converted to yachts.

 

[dapaterson]

There is still a couple of the YAG's still going, so I expect the Orcas would sell and be used for charters or converted to yachts.

A three hour tour...

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is still a couple of the YAG's still going, so I expect the Orcas would sell and be used for charters or converted to yachts.

Who is using the old YAGs ?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Who is using the old YAGs ?

private owners

One of them was recently scrapped

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile in the US things are not going as planned. But South Korea is going full steam ahead on icebreakers.

Bollinger Shipyards Awarded Nearly $1B to Cover Cost Overruns of Coast Guard Polar Security Cutter Program

Mississippi-based Bollinger Shipyards has received a $951.6 million Fixed-Price-Incentive-Firm Target (FPIF) contract modification from the U.S. Coast Guard to continue designing and constructing the first new heavy icebreakers, also known as the Polar Security Cutter (PSC).

gcaptain.com

South Korea Bolsters Polar Capabilities Moving Ahead With Next-Generation Icebreaker

South Korea’s next-generation icebreaker is back on track. The country joins several other nations, including the U.S., Canada, Russia, China, and Germany upgrading and expanding their icebreaker capacity. Similar to...

gcaptain.com

 

[Booter]

private owners

One of them was recently scrapped

The yags were a trip. Regular old residential linoleum tiles in the galley. Looked like it could have been a kitchen in Cape Breton lol

 

[Nvlgzr]

Your suggestions have been noted and included in the RFI.

The RCN RFI:
View attachment 92285

And because it falls under Naval vessels part of NSS it is awarded to Irving. first of class after 15 year procurement all for only $ 8 gazillion.

 

[Maxman1]

Would it be possible to modify the Hero class design to accommodate the same number of trainees?

Also, would it make sense to build more Hero class patrol boats for the RCMP and CBSA, to expand their marine patrolling? At 250 tons, any yard could do it.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No! No! No! Even the CCG doesn't like the Hero class vessels.

The capacity to go alongside in many places in the Gulf Islands is NOT a requirement anyway. Even with the YAG's we anchored half the times. Two other classes of training vessels also replaced, so to speak, with the Orca's navigated mostly in the Gulf Island and very seldom went alongside, preferring to anchor "rafted up" most nights: The PB's (ex minesweepers) and the Gate Vessels.

The main problem with the Orca's for stability is the size of that friggin bridge: cut it in half to save weight and put the "not on watch" trainee's secondary/practice navigation equipment and chart table in the open air.

Someone above proposed the British UNRU small patrol vessel used for training (the P2000). It could work in a Canadian setting if you really want to be able to go alongside at night, but remember, for the trainees, it stuffs them all up in a single large messdeck and it has no large work room to prepare for the next days passages. You could make them "Canada" friendly with a slightly stretched version at say 25 meters LOA, versus the UK's 20 meters. It's an option - but such vessels would probably not be as good as the Orca for the command development courses.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Actually, going alongside is a requirement. Otherwise, how do trainees learn how to go alongside?

No! No! No! Even the CCG doesn't like the Hero class vessels.

The capacity to go alongside in many places in the Gulf Islands is NOT a requirement anyway. Even with the YAG's we anchored half the times. Two other classes of training vessels also replaced, so to speak, with the Orca's navigated mostly in the Gulf Island and very seldom went alongside, preferring to anchor "rafted up" most nights: The PB's (ex minesweepers) and the Gate Vessels.

The main problem with the Orca's for stability is the size of that friggin bridge: cut it in half to save weight and put the "not on watch" trainee's secondary/practice navigation equipment and chart table in the open air.

Someone above proposed the British UNRU small patrol vessel used for training (the P2000). It could work in a Canadian setting if you really want to be able to go alongside at night, but remember, for the trainees, it stuffs them all up in a single large messdeck and it has no large work room to prepare for the next days passages. You could make them "Canada" friendly with a slightly stretched version at say 25 meters LOA, versus the UK's 20 meters. It's an option - but such vessels would probably not be as good as the Orca for the command development courses.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

They don't. Alongsides are done by the OIC of the tender. You learn shiphandling for going alongside by observing the CO, Navo and Special OOW on a regular ship later in your career. When we had them, you may (emphasis on may) have gotten a few on a small training ship as one of the ship's officer (such as GV or PB). In the frigates, destroyers or AORs, you would have to wait until you are a NWO head of department or the Navo before getting a chance to get easy ones in. Even then, most alongsides are done by the CO or the XO, when they even do it, because when you are assisted by tugs, QHM's pilot actually handles the ship for the CO.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If I were to “clean sheet” the training vessel fleet, I would do this:

Tenders- purchase something 75ft or less for basic seamanship and basic navigation training. This would be a trainee’s first exposure to sailing. Buy enough for VENTURE, plus each NRD with water access on each coast should get one, plus each NRD on the Great Lakes. This would allow NRDs to maintain seamanship skills without having necessarily to fly out to the coast.

Training ship- something about ORCA size, but with better range, better sea keeping to go to the outside of Vancouver Island (at least in the summer), and maybe a few more bunks. The connectors and empty mounts should be there for remote weapon stations/missiles, but not installed until/unless you need them. Trainees would graduate from the tenders to the training ships, before going to the fleet. If fully kitted out, the training ships could have a patrol role in wartime.

 

[dapaterson]

If I were to “clean sheet” the training vessel fleet, I would do this:

Tenders- purchase something 75ft or less for basic seamanship and basic navigation training. This would be a trainee’s first exposure to sailing. Buy enough for VENTURE, plus each NRD with water access on each coast should get one, plus each NRD on the Great Lakes. This would allow NRDs to maintain seamanship skills without having necessarily to fly out to the coast.

Training ship- something about ORCA size, but with better range, better sea keeping to go to the outside of Vancouver Island (at least in the summer), and maybe a few more bunks. The connectors and empty mounts should be there for remote weapon stations/missiles, but not installed until/unless you need them. Trainees would graduate from the tenders to the training ships, before going to the fleet. If fully kitted out, the training ships could have a patrol role in wartime.

My only critique is that you need more tenders than one per location; oceans and lakes are determined to damage ships (to say nothing of NWOs with an inerrant ability to find sandbars and reefs), so the model has to have built in the knowledge that there will always be ships on DWP, EDWP, and "Bill gashed the hull when he had the chart upside down again".

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Small patrol boats permanently stationed at the coastal Naval Reserve units. Have stull like the encrypted comm unit easily removable and the rest of the vessel, commercial grade and maintained locally. They can do their own training and harbour security and support Cadet Corps with them. In addition to the Orca's. This is where I see the Kingston's demise as a bad thing, they are a step up to a real ship for the ship handlers to get good at their craft.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I still think that we need to strongly consider having some type of training vessels on the GL.
The vast majority of our population lives almost adjacent to the GL and you would open up a career in the RCN to hundreds of thousands of young people who otherwise have zero exposure to that way of life.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If I were to “clean sheet” the training vessel fleet, I would do this:

Tenders- purchase something 75ft or less for basic seamanship and basic navigation training. This would be a trainee’s first exposure to sailing. Buy enough for VENTURE, plus each NRD with water access on each coast should get one, plus each NRD on the Great Lakes. This would allow NRDs to maintain seamanship skills without having necessarily to fly out to the coast.

Training ship- something about ORCA size, but with better range, better sea keeping to go to the outside of Vancouver Island (at least in the summer), and maybe a few more bunks. The connectors and empty mounts should be there for remote weapon stations/missiles, but not installed until/unless you need them. Trainees would graduate from the tenders to the training ships, before going to the fleet. If fully kitted out, the training ships could have a patrol role in wartime.

Well, SKT, you take me back 40 years (good lord! I AM that old).

That's the model of the time: Basic navigation (MARS 3) was done on the YAGs, advanced navigation and OOW training (MARS 4, MARS 5 and DNO) was done on the PB's (the ex minesweepers). At the same time, most reserve units with access to appropriate sailing areas had unit tenders consisting of the old RCMP marine division patrol vessels in the 55 to 75 feet LOA range.

That would work, but I add a caveat: The larger training vessels should be in the 500 tons range and naval reservists have to be able to have a path to command them - not just Reg F. officers.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My only critique is that you need more tenders than one per location; oceans and lakes are determined to damage ships (to say nothing of NWOs with an inerrant ability to find sandbars and reefs), so the model has to have built in the knowledge that there will always be ships on DWP, EDWP, and "Bill gashed the hull when he had the chart upside down again".

I wouldn’t worry about an NRD tender being down for maintenance (planned or otherwise). The backup is either go visit another NRD or fly to the coast until your’s is fixed.

 

[Swampbuggy]

No! No! No! Even the CCG doesn't like the Hero class vessels.

The capacity to go alongside in many places in the Gulf Islands is NOT a requirement anyway. Even with the YAG's we anchored half the times. Two other classes of training vessels also replaced, so to speak, with the Orca's navigated mostly in the Gulf Island and very seldom went alongside, preferring to anchor "rafted up" most nights: The PB's (ex minesweepers) and the Gate Vessels.

The main problem with the Orca's for stability is the size of that friggin bridge: cut it in half to save weight and put the "not on watch" trainee's secondary/practice navigation equipment and chart table in the open air.

Someone above proposed the British UNRU small patrol vessel used for training (the P2000). It could work in a Canadian setting if you really want to be able to go alongside at night, but remember, for the trainees, it stuffs them all up in a single large messdeck and it has no large work room to prepare for the next days passages. You could make them "Canada" friendly with a slightly stretched version at say 25 meters LOA, versus the UK's 20 meters. It's an option - but such vessels would probably not be as good as the Orca for the command development courses.

I’ve been wondering what the issue is with the HERO class. I believe the USCG Sentinel class is a variant of the same design and they keep ordering more of them (almost 70 now) based on their success. Is the big issue construction or design related? It seems like the size and capabilities would hit the sweet spot for all possible applications.