New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Underway]

I'm wondering if the "Continental" part of the "Continental Defence Corvette" refers to the proposed idea of using these ships as a networked ABM platform rather than them being "home game" rather than "away game" ships. No doubt, if that's the case they wouldn't necessarily require extended range or endurance for the North American ABM role, but to be honest I question the logic of that role.

The Strike length VLS is presumably so that the CDC can launch the SM-3 missile for the ABM role - which would have to be guided by the Aegis system on an accompanying River-class Destroyer. The likelihood of an enemy surface fleet approaching the coast of North America in the face of the USAF, and USN submarines and surface ships is in my opinion extremely low so the the Strike-length VLS wouldn't be intended for Tomahawks or LRASM's.

This is where the logic breaks down for me. The SM-3 is design and optimized for intercepting Short to Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM/IRBM) but have extremely limited against Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs). From Chatgpt:



So, given their limited usefulness against ICBMs (and the fact that they are unlikely to be positioned in the Arctic along the most likely route of Russian ICBMs) then presumably they would be intended to intercept short/intermediate range ballistic missiles launched from submarines approaching our coasts against North America.

If enemy subs were to launch such an attack I'm fairly confident that NORAD would likely classify it as a potential first-strike, decapitation attack and would respond with a nuclear counter-strike. I'm sure that the Russians and Chinese know this and for that reason wouldn't launch a conventional ballistic missile strike against North America for fear of such a response. So if the sub-launched strikes were rather part of a larger, full-scale nuclear strike against North America then shooting down a handful of SRBM/IRBM's launched from subs would likely do nothing more than bounce the rubble created by the massive ICBM strikes.

Where anti-SRBM/IRBM capability WOULD be quite useful would be in an expeditionary conflict in the Pacific, or the Persian (er, Arabian) Gulf, the Red Sea, etc. where these types of conventional missiles could quite possibly be used against Canadian or allied ships. However for the CDC to be useful in those situation it would have to have the range and endurance that is not in the design. Same with having the Strike-length VLS launched Tomahawk and LRASM missiles.

Frankly, the whole program doesn't make much sense to me.

Continental defence includes defence against aircraft, drones, ships and submarines. Strike length VLS future proofs any system as any ordinance will have to fit into the worlds most common VLS. Maybe you're using ASROC to attack a submarine found by a UUV in the arctic approaches. Still continental defence.

If the future is networked, than the sensors, effectors and platforms will all be distributed and in different places. RCD could be the the central hub in a CDC, or it could be an airborne sensor (Global Eye or Wedgetail) or it could be a ground based sensor (LRDR in Alaska). CDC might have half decent sensing capability (SMART-S radars can reach out pretty far).

This is a sort of Tier 2 combatant that Australia talks about, though lighter.

 

[PrairieFella]

Continental also implies taking over Caribbe stuff. Free up the destroyers and the aops for their actual roles, while having some real teeth if needed for thr defence of the homeland.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Continental also implies taking over Caribbe stuff. Free up the destroyers and the aops for their actual roles, while having some real teeth if needed for thr defence of the homeland.

So no more trips over to Ghana or Nigeria but more trips to Jamaica, St Thomas and San Juan, got ya!

 

[PrairieFella]

So no more trips over to Ghana or Nigeria but more trips to Jamaica, St Thomas and San Juan, got ya!

Sounds like a win to me for the sailors lol

 

[KevinB]

K

I'm wondering if the "Continental" part of the "Continental Defence Corvette" refers to the proposed idea of using these ships as a networked ABM platform rather than them being "home game" rather than "away game" ships. No doubt, if that's the case they wouldn't necessarily require extended range or endurance for the North American ABM role, but to be honest I question the logic of that role.

The Strike length VLS is presumably so that the CDC can launch the SM-3 missile for the ABM role - which would have to be guided by the Aegis system on an accompanying River-class Destroyer. The likelihood of an enemy surface fleet approaching the coast of North America in the face of the USAF, and USN submarines and surface ships is in my opinion extremely low so the the Strike-length VLS wouldn't be intended for Tomahawks or LRASM's.

This is where the logic breaks down for me. The SM-3 is design and optimized for intercepting Short to Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles (SRBM/IRBM) but have extremely limited against Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs). From Chatgpt:



So, given their limited usefulness against ICBMs (and the fact that they are unlikely to be positioned in the Arctic along the most likely route of Russian ICBMs) then presumably they would be intended to intercept short/intermediate range ballistic missiles launched from submarines approaching our coasts against North America.

If enemy subs were to launch such an attack I'm fairly confident that NORAD would likely classify it as a potential first-strike, decapitation attack and would respond with a nuclear counter-strike. I'm sure that the Russians and Chinese know this and for that reason wouldn't launch a conventional ballistic missile strike against North America for fear of such a response. So if the sub-launched strikes were rather part of a larger, full-scale nuclear strike against North America then shooting down a handful of SRBM/IRBM's launched from subs would likely do nothing more than bounce the rubble created by the massive ICBM strikes.

Where anti-SRBM/IRBM capability WOULD be quite useful would be in an expeditionary conflict in the Pacific, or the Persian (er, Arabian) Gulf, the Red Sea, etc. where these types of conventional missiles could quite possibly be used against Canadian or allied ships. However for the CDC to be useful in those situation it would have to have the range and endurance that is not in the design. Same with having the Strike-length VLS launched Tomahawk and LRASM missiles.

Frankly, the whole program doesn't make much sense to me.

I would put very little stock in any OS interception information on either IRBM’s and ICBM’s from any western missile option.

The key aspect anyway is as @Underway notes, about future proofing.

 

[k.numbers]

Seems like we're doing this backwards. The 150m, 8,000 tonne destroyer is the ASW platform and the ~100m corvette is an area air defense/BMD platform?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Seems like we're doing this backwards. The 150m, 8,000 tonne destroyer is the ASW platform and the ~100m corvette is an area air defense/BMD platform?

Silence!

 

[Cloud Cover]

So no more trips over to Ghana or Nigeria but more trips to Jamaica, St Thomas and San Juan, got ya!

No love for Haiti?

No, not that Haiti. They are going to Montreal.

 

[quadrapiper]

Seems like we're doing this backwards. The 150m, 8,000 tonne destroyer is the ASW platform and the ~100m corvette is an area air defense/BMD platform?

Surface ASW means open ocean work and helicopters, and maybe mothershpped uncrewed things, all of which impose certain size requirements. Nobody in their right mind is looking at a SACKVILLE 2025 as a reasonable deep sea combatant, and almost all of Canada's ASW business will be happening either in the open ocean or on the other side of one or more oceans.

So even if all the Rivers were doing was ASW, they'd be big.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

and almost all of Canada's ASW business will be happening either in the open ocean or on the other side of one or more oceans.

Which would explain why HMCS SHAWINIGAN (the first) was sunk in Cabot strait, or that HMCS ESQUIMALT was sunk in the Halifax approaches in April of 1945 - almost at the end of the war and when the U-Boats were under severe prosecution pressure everywhere.

 

[Underway]

Seems like we're doing this backwards. The 150m, 8,000 tonne destroyer is the ASW platform and the ~100m corvette is an area air defense/BMD platform?

The RCD are full spectrum war fighting ships. All the options, air defence, land attack, anti ship, EW, helo embarked.

Corvette can only do one maybe two jobs at a time. That's the differentiation.

And honestly, we need more hulls to be more places. Its that simple. CDC feels very European or South Asian. Small crews, shortish trips, local conditions.

I expect with crews that small there will only be two hot meals a day. (plus soup, if no soup we mutiny).

 

[quadrapiper]

Which would explain why HMCS SHAWINIGAN (the first) was sunk in Cabot strait, or that HMCS ESQUIMALT was sunk in the Halifax approaches in April of 1945 - almost at the end of the war and when the U-Boats were under severe prosecution pressure everywhere.

I did say almost all, as distinct from Russia's European and Asian neighbours.

Are subs still able to pull that sort of approach?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Are subs still able to pull that sort of approach?

Yes.




We've sunk enough US supercarriers with O-Boats right in front of Norfolk to prove it (even though the referees always found a reason to somehow "disqualify" the attack)

 

[Halifax Tar]

I expect with crews that small there will only be two hot meals a day. (plus soup, if no soup we mutiny).

We need to change our feeding as is.

Breakfast:
Mon - Fri : Continental
Sat - Sun: Full

Stand Easy Soup Remains, like you said or we mutiny

Lunch:
Soup, Salad, Sandwich combination

Supper:
Hot Meal + Duff

*Toast, cereal, fruit, juice, coffee, tea always available

Our sailors aren't doing the physical labor that required a high caloric intake now.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We need to change our feeding as is.

Breakfast:
Mon - Fri : Continental
Sat - Sun: Full

Stand Easy Soup Remains, like you said or we mutiny

Lunch:
Soup, Salad, Sandwich combination

Supper:
Hot Meal + Duff

*Toast, cereal, fruit, juice, coffee, tea always available

Our sailors aren't doing the physical labor that required a high caloric intake now.

That is actually not bad. I could get behind that.

 

[PrairieFella]

No love for Haiti?

No, not that Haiti. They are going to Montreal.

Man I wish there was something we could do for the Haitians. Every Haitian I've met is so friendly, they've been dealt a terrible hand by history, nature and the quality of their leaders

 

[Czech_pivo]

Man I wish there was something we could do for the Haitians. Every Haitian I've met is so friendly, they've been dealt a terrible hand by history, nature and the quality of their leaders

Short of taking over the entire country and running it for 30+yrs there is really not much we can do.

But if we did that and it well, they'd head and shoulders better off than alot of the other countries in the Carib.

 

[PrairieFella]

Short of taking over the entire country and running it for 30+yrs there is really not much we can do.

But if we did that and it well, they'd head and shoulders better off than alot of the other countries in the Carib.

I agree. I'm not advocating interventionism, I just feel bad for the cards they hold.

 

[Underway]

We need to change our feeding as is.

Breakfast:
Mon - Fri : Continental
Sat - Sun: Full

Stand Easy Soup Remains, like you said or we mutiny

Lunch:
Soup, Salad, Sandwich combination

Supper:
Hot Meal + Duff

*Toast, cereal, fruit, juice, coffee, tea always available

Our sailors aren't doing the physical labor that required a high caloric intake now.

I think there is room in lunch for things like chili every once in a while, or fries on the side. But certainly not always a full hot meal. This is a great idea, much more European.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think there is room in lunch for things like chili every once in a while, or fries on the side. But certainly not always a full hot meal. This is a great idea, much more European.

I don't want to totally derail here, but to me chili is a soup.