New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Cloud Cover]

I agree. I'm not advocating interventionism, I just feel bad for the cards they hold.

I can take you to multiple Indian reserves in BC that have just as much or more squandered opportunity, and near unrivalled poverty, corruption, drug lords, oppression, crime and despair. We can hang out with some of my friends (well their graves, actually) and see how well we’ve done. We can’t seem to straighten out that either. But that’s another topic.

Plus we haven’t invaded Haiti for 20 or more years, so we’re out of practice.

 

[JLB50]

Correct me if I’m wrong but France would not allow the newly-independent nation of Haiti to get international recognition unless it paid compensation for the financial losses of slave owners. Those payments left Haiti perpetually broke and continued until very recently for around two centuries. France should have been the one to pay compensation to Haiti for what its people suffered under slavery. On top of that, one of their early leaders, Toussaint Louverture (kind of a George Washington of Haiti) was tricked by the French under a flag of truce, imprisoned and tortured where he eventually died.

 

[PrairieFella]

Correct me if I’m wrong but France would not allow the newly-independent nation of Haiti to get international recognition unless it paid compensation for the financial losses of slave owners. Those payments left Haiti perpetually broke and continued until very recently for around two centuries. France should have been the one to pay compensation to Haiti for what its people suffered under slavery. On top of that, one of their early leaders, Toussaint Louverture (kind of a George Washington of Haiti) was tricked by the French under a flag of truce, imprisoned and tortured where he eventually died.

You are correct. In fact it was even worse in that the French threatened to blockade them with thr weight of the French Navy usless they paid up. They didn't finish paying the indemnities until the 20th century.

If you guys want to learn about the fucking tragedy that is Haitian history, give Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast series about the Haitian Slave Revolution a listen. Dark dark history there boy.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If you guys want to learn about the fucking tragedy that is Haitian history, give Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast series about the Haitian Slave Revolution a listen. Dark dark history there boy.

Haven't listened to the podcast, but I have done some reading on that revolution. It will give you shudders. Very bleak period of human history.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I agree. I'm not advocating interventionism, I just feel bad for the cards they hold.

Sadly they don't even hold any cards.

 

[k.numbers]

The RCD are full spectrum war fighting ships. All the options, air defence, land attack, anti ship, EW, helo embarked.

Corvette can only do one maybe two jobs at a time. That's the differentiation.

And honestly, we need more hulls to be more places. Its that simple. CDC feels very European or South Asian. Small crews, shortish trips, local conditions.

I expect with crews that small there will only be two hot meals a day. (plus soup, if no soup we mutiny).

Yes, the RCD are well rounded and not 'just' ASW ships. My comment was somewhat serious, but partially in jest.

The more serious/nuanced criticism is that the RCD had its requirements defined and its design work done with the expactation that it would be the only surface combatant in the fleet. If the RCN is going back to two surface combatants, there could have been a more efficient split between their capabilities/equipment. It's all hindsite of course

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes, the RCD are well rounded and not 'just' ASW ships. My comment was somewhat serious, but partially in jest.

The more serious/nuanced criticism is that the RCD had its requirements defined and its design work done with the expactation that it would be the only surface combatant in the fleet. If the RCN is going back to two surface combatants, there could have been a more efficient split between their capabilities/equipment. It's all hindsite of course

I get a kick out of the combatant v noncombatant thing.

The only people who decide what is and isn't a combatant is the enemy.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Correct me if I’m wrong but France would not allow the newly-independent nation of Haiti to get international recognition unless it paid compensation for the financial losses of slave owners. Those payments left Haiti perpetually broke and continued until very recently for around two centuries. France should have been the one to pay compensation to Haiti for what its people suffered under slavery. On top of that, one of their early leaders, Toussaint Louverture (kind of a George Washington of Haiti) was tricked by the French under a flag of truce, imprisoned and tortured where he eventually died.

They paid it off in 1922 to the French and interest on associated loans in 1947. So they have had 78 years to get their shit together. Meanwhile the Dominican Republic, fought off the Spanish and Haiti, survived brutal dictatorships and somehow built their country into a reasonably functioning society, in roughly the same timeframe.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They paid it off in 1922 to the French and interest on associated loans in 1947. So they have had 78 years to get their shit together. Meanwhile the Dominican Republic, fought off the Spanish and Haiti, survived brutal dictatorships and somehow built their country into a reasonably functioning society, in roughly the same timeframe.

Not everybody makes it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Not everybody makes it.

True that.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I get a kick out of the combatant v noncombatant thing.

The only people who decide what is and isn't a combatant is the enemy.

On the pointy head side there is actually a specific definition and has to do with whether or not you have built in combat recoverability, versus just build to commercial standards and crew it to get from A to B.

There is an entire ANEP on it (ANEP 68), but it's stuck in the NATO review/approval loop so who knows when it will be published, but will give some common performance goals about what that means.

Depending what you have in the CONOPs, you can have a combatant, built to commercial standards, with some additional requirements for how you build things (like shock resistance and redundancy), with enough people to survive some damage.

You can also slap a lot of weapons on a barge and go kamikaze, but that's really just a glass cannon.

AOPS for example has no combat recoverability in the design, and no real threat detection or engagement, but can still do a lot of things like constabulary, HADR and other useful things that don't need that, and MCDVs did a lot like that for decades as well.

The non combatants provide a useful function, but at the same time you don't send a mall security guard into front line combat, so having a mix of both isn't a bad thing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

On the pointy head side there is actually a specific definition and has to do with whether or not you have built in combat recoverability, versus just build to commercial standards and crew it to get from A to B.

There is an entire ANEP on it (ANEP 68), but it's stuck in the NATO review/approval loop so who knows when it will be published, but will give some common performance goals about what that means.

Depending what you have in the CONOPs, you can have a combatant, built to commercial standards, with some additional requirements for how you build things (like shock resistance and redundancy), with enough people to survive some damage.

You can also slap a lot of weapons on a barge and go kamikaze, but that's really just a glass cannon.

AOPS for example has no combat recoverability in the design, and no real threat detection or engagement, but can still do a lot of things like constabulary, HADR and other useful things that don't need that, and MCDVs did a lot like that for decades as well.

The non combatants provide a useful function, but at the same time you don't send a mall security guard into front line combat, so having a mix of both isn't a bad thing.

None of it matters. You're only a non combatant until the enemy decides you're not.

 

[Navy_Pete]

They paid it off in 1922 to the French and interest on associated loans in 1947. So they have had 78 years to get their shit together. Meanwhile the Dominican Republic, fought off the Spanish and Haiti, survived brutal dictatorships and somehow built their country into a reasonably functioning society, in roughly the same timeframe.

Sure, but there was decades of brutal regimes of Papa Doc and co, as well as subsequent military coups of democratically elected presidents supported by the US as it advanced their interests, so not like they weren't running with a handicap.

https://www.pope.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/242223/a-brief-history-of-us-involvement-in-haiti/

 

[Navy_Pete]

None of it matters. You're only a non combatant until the enemy decides you're not.

Sure it does; it makes the difference between fighting back or being just a target. Ships built and crewed as non-combatants being sent to high threat areas is straight up negligent (but so are combatants that aren't maintained and don't meet SOLAS standards, let alone not having serious combat recoverability defects that makes survivability slim).

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think we're saying the same thing. But you're really technical and I drew it in crayon.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I think we're saying the same thing. But you're really technical and I drew it in crayon.

Mean Navies Suck.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think we're saying the same thing. But you're really technical and I drew it in crayon.

You're right though, you can call a ship a non-combatant but if someone decides otherwise you are up a creek.

I spent a few years working with the team on that combat recoverability ANEP though so got way into the technical weeds on that. It was pretty interesting to hear how different countries approached the same problem. Really like some of the things the RN does and what they have built into the T26, but others make no sense and are a bit of a step back for us.

 

[quadrapiper]

It was pretty interesting to hear how different countries approached the same problem. Really like some of the things the RN does and what they have built into the T26, but others make no sense and are a bit of a step back for us.

Anything shareable?

 

[Underway]

None of it matters. You're only a non combatant until the enemy decides you're not.

Non combatant refers to ability to fight, not getting hit. Definitions matter.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Non combatant refers to ability to fight, not getting hit. Definitions matter.

“What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”

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