New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Halifax Tar]

But won't the bottleneck faced be getting the actual weapons systems needed? It seems that we are well on the way of trying to first solve the issue of building a ship and then second, building a ship quick but what's being done to arm the ship? If the timelines to drop a 57mm or 76mm or a 127mm on the deck, add 8-16 VLS, a Harpoon, a pair of torpedo tubes and a Loinfish or two on the boat is so long that it renders the timelines mute, what good is building something quick.

Don't we now need to look at how to arm something quick as well?

I predict in a protracted naval war guns will become the weapons of choice, again.

As stockpiles of missiles dwindle and are hard or impossible to replace old school power and shell will quickly make a comeback.

I would be smart for Canada to get back into artillery manufacturing (Naval and Land).

 

[Halifax Tar]

But won't the bottleneck faced be getting the actual weapons systems needed? It seems that we are well on the way of trying to first solve the issue of building a ship and then second, building a ship quick but what's being done to arm the ship? If the timelines to drop a 57mm or 76mm or a 127mm on the deck, add 8-16 VLS, a Harpoon, a pair of torpedo tubes and a Loinfish or two on the boat is so long that it renders the timelines mute, what good is building something quick.

Don't we now need to look at how to arm something quick as well?

We need to look at the whole thing. We need to find a modern day ship that we can crank out multiple of a year and be good enough for what ever were tasked to do, which I suspect will be securing sea lanes.

RCDs are great, but their a long time to build and super expensive. We need to figure out a modern Flower class.

 

[Czech_pivo]

We need to look at the whole thing. We need to find a modern day ship that we can crank out multiple of a year and be good enough for what ever were tasked to do, which I suspect will be securing sea lanes.

RCDs are great, but their a long time to build and super expensive. We need to figure out a modern Flower class.

And to drop more than just a 70+yr Bofors on the deck and push off from the wharf.

 

[Lumber]

I think they are looking at China's build speed and reorienting on the idea of a high low mix. Australia and UK are down that direction. Ukraine showed that stockpiles matter, as does build replacement speed. So having your super high end carriers, aircraft and destroyers augmented by lower end frigates which can be more places at more times is one way to tackle the lack of ships problem.

The USN is designed for Cold War tactics against a smaller Soviet Navy. The Chinese problem requires a different solution. One for one a frigate of Legend class capability will be a match for the Chinese equivalent frigates.

They need the Sherman tank of the sea!

 

[Halifax Tar]

They need the Sherman tank of the sea!

That exactly it. They need a balance between quality and producibility. I would argue we need the same.

 

[GR66]

Before we go an buy a bunch of new ships why don't we define exactly what we expect them to be doing and where. What role do you see these Flower-class 2.0 fulfilling, against whom and where?

 

[Halifax Tar]

We need to look at the whole thing. We need to find a modern day ship that we can crank out multiple of a year and be good enough for what ever were tasked to do, which I suspect will be securing sea lanes.

RCDs are great, but their a long time to build and super expensive. We need to figure out a modern Flower class.

Before we go an buy a bunch of new ships why don't we define exactly what we expect them to be doing and where. What role do you see these Flower-class 2.0 fulfilling, against whom and where?

Which I suspect puts us at a primary ASW role. China, in the Pacific.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Which I suspect puts us at a primary ASW role. China, in the Pacific.

But who's going to be able to quickly supply us the weapons needed to do ASW in the Pacific? We have the ability to control our own timelines to build a hull but we are still at the mercy of foreigners to supply us with the weapons - all of them - needed. How do we break this constraint?

 

[Halifax Tar]

But who's going to be able to quickly supply us the weapons needed to do ASW in the Pacific? We have the ability to control our own timelines to build a hull but we are still at the mercy of foreigners to supply us with the weapons - all of them - needed. How do we break this constraint?

This is the issue. We're quickly facing a similar issue as we did in 1939.
WarMuseum.ca - Democracy at War - Shipping and Shipbuilding - Canada and the War

The argument for a booming Canadian armaments and munitions industrial base is deafening.

 

[Swampbuggy]

And to drop more than just a 70+yr Bofors on the deck and push off from the wharf.

Not to mention radar, other sensors and EW suites etc…How fast could you realistically put your hands on the rest of the package beyond hulls and weapons.

 

[GR66]

Which I suspect puts us at a primary ASW role. China, in the Pacific.

I agree, but also to defend our own territorial waters, not just for expeditionary in the Pacific.

Which begs the question as to what type of ASW weapons would you need on a Flower-class 2.0? Or, as I've been advised when asking that same question regarding the Continental Defence Corvette, do they only need to be able to detect enemy subs and leave the kinetic portion to other platforms?

Also, do these ships need to be crewed? Minimally crewed? Optionally crewed? Uncrewed?

 

[Lumber]

I agree, but also to defend our own territorial waters, not just for expeditionary in the Pacific.

Which begs the question as to what type of ASW weapons would you need on a Flower-class 2.0? Or, as I've been advised when asking that same question regarding the Continental Defence Corvette, do they only need to be able to detect enemy subs and leave the kinetic portion to other platforms?

Also, do these ships need to be crewed? Minimally crewed? Optionally crewed? Uncrewed?

Lets recognize that Halifax Tar was not envisioning something as small and basic as the flower class, but rather just that we need something that is cheap, easy to produce, and focused on purpose. The CDC could fit this bill if it doesn't go the way of the constellation class and encounter unsustainable scope growth.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree, but also to defend our own territorial waters, not just for expeditionary in the Pacific.

Which begs the question as to what type of ASW weapons would you need on a Flower-class 2.0? Or, as I've been advised when asking that same question regarding the Continental Defence Corvette, do they only need to be able to detect enemy subs and leave the kinetic portion to other platforms?

Also, do these ships need to be crewed? Minimally crewed? Optionally crewed? Uncrewed?

Thats for the tactics and operations folks and their SMEness to advise on.

What I know is what we are building now is practical in peacetime and impractical in state of war.

Lets recognize that Halifax Tar was not envisioning something as small and basic as the flower class, but rather just that we need something that is cheap, easy to produce, and focused on purpose. The CDC could fit this bill if it doesn't go the way of the constellation class and encounter unsustainable scope growth.

Bingo.

 

[NavyShooter]

The first level of the force continuum is a visible armed presence.

The Halifax Class self-divesting as they age out is likely going to reduce our ability to provide a visible armed presence.

The AOPS is most definitely not a visible armed presence.

Getting some gray ships with guns and missiles aboard is important...otherwise folks will think we don't care about having a Navy anymore.

Oh....

 

[Czech_pivo]

This is the issue. We're quickly facing a similar issue as we did in 1939.
WarMuseum.ca - Democracy at War - Shipping and Shipbuilding - Canada and the War

The argument for a booming Canadian armaments and munitions industrial base is deafening.

This sort of stuff would be a boon for the manufacturing heart of southern Ontario. There are many small/medium sized firms in Ontario that could begin to cover off this short coming.