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New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

  • Thread starter Thread starter GAP
  • Start date Start date
We have two fleets, so we need ships ready to go in both fleets for other commitments, while also sending a TG.
But between those two fleets and the TG tasking, 15 should yield 5 at a given time yes?
There is no real reason to cut RCDs to have CDCs, apart from Canada not being a serious nation. If we are planning for that, just cut the whole lot and spend the money on UBI.
Did it make the Aussies unserious when they cut three future Hunters as part of a Pivot to get 11 frigates? Should they be cancelling it all and getting on with UBI?

Obviously figuring out the path to 15 Rivers +, 12-15 CDC's is ideal. But the status quo is 15 Rivers and zero CDC's. There are credible doubts in this very thread as to whether any number of CDC's is viable. I agree with the sentiment "we should be more than capable of sustaining 25-30 surface combatants of various sizes and 6-12 subs." But the fact is that the number (15) of Rivers was decided on when the planned number of surface combatants was also 15, and the planned number of subs was 4.

Short and sweet question- is a fleet of 12 Rivers and 12 Vigilance 100ish CDC's more desirable than a fleet of 15 Rivers and 12 autocannon armed OPV's?


What if its 9 Rivers and 15-18 CDC's, and the CDC's evolve into a full on 4000 tonne frigate akin to the Aussie pick?
 
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But between those two fleets and the TG tasking, 15 should yield 5 at a given time yes?

Did it make the Aussies unserious when they cut three future Hunters as part of a Pivot to get 11 of a tier II combatant? Should they be getting on with UBI?

Obviously figuring out the path to 15 Rivers +, 12-15 CDC's is ideal. But the status quo is 15 Rivers and zero CDC's. There are credible doubts in this very thread as to whether any number of CDC's is viable. I agree with the sentiment "we should be more than capable of sustaining 25-30 surface combatants of various sizes and 6-12 subs. But the fact is that the number (15) of Rivers was decided on when the planned number of surface combatants was also 15, and the planned number of subs was 4.

Short and sweet question- is a fleet of 12 Rivers and 12 Vigilance 100ish CDC's more desirable than a fleet of 15 Rivers and 12 autocannon armed OPV's?
the 15 always seems like the 65 F35s. Want more but no money
I dont think theres a firm idea or plan on what the CDC is or who is going to or can build it
plus if we dont have the people, how many carts do we want to put in front of the horse
 
the 15 always seems like the 65 F35s. Want more but no money
I dont think theres a firm idea or plan on what the CDC is or who is going to or can build it
plus if we dont have the people, how many carts do we want to put in front of the horse
A quick search on google says that the Type 26 will have a crew of 161 and berths for 208. For our Rivers is says a crew of 210 with no further breakdown.
 
But between those two fleets and the TG tasking, 15 should yield 5 at a given time yes?
So three for a TG and two others for all the other tasks, mission, exercises, etc... That seems pretty minimal to me.

Did it make the Aussies unserious when they cut three future Hunters as part of a Pivot to get 11 frigates? Should they be cancelling it all and getting on with UBI?
A bit... They also made the Hunter into a monster that not even the RCD is expected to become. They did to Hunter what the Americans did to the Constellation. We have already scaled back on RCD so that we don't go completely down that route.

Before we even get to defining exactly what a CDC is, we should be considering cutting the RCDs? That's unserious, and send the wrong message to industry, allies, and adversaries alike.

There is zero reason Canada can't afford 15 RCDs and an equal number of CDCs(unless they become like the Hunter/Constellation themselves). T

For the naysayers, the CAF is seeing a huge boost in recruiting numbers, even for occupations that have struggled in the last 10 years or more. Last summer we couldn't fill a Met Tech DP1, this year we expect the serial to be at close to, if not max numbers. Not planning/building ships based on recruiting numbers from a few years ago is planning to fail for another 10-20 years. The last thing the navy needs is to go back to the
"bathtub" years, when we had far more sailors than ships, so people sat ashore bored and not getting training/experience.
 
A quick search on google says that the Type 26 will have a crew of 161 and berths for 208. For our Rivers is says a crew of 210 with no further breakdown.
In the meantime we have to spool up the 2 AORs, actual personnel issues with the RCDs wont really come up until the 30s
presumably there will be some training adjustments

8400
AOR 2x200=400
AOPS 6x65=390
SSK 3x60=180
HAL 12x250= 3000
MCDV 4x45=180
4150

15x210=3150
2x200=400
6x65=390
12x50=600
4540
But between those two fleets and the TG tasking, 15 should yield 5 at a given time yes?

Did it make the Aussies unserious when they cut three future Hunters as part of a Pivot to get 11 frigates? Should they be cancelling it all and getting on with UBI?

Obviously figuring out the path to 15 Rivers +, 12-15 CDC's is ideal. But the status quo is 15 Rivers and zero CDC's. There are credible doubts in this very thread as to whether any number of CDC's is viable. I agree with the sentiment "we should be more than capable of sustaining 25-30 surface combatants of various sizes and 6-12 subs." But the fact is that the number (15) of Rivers was decided on when the planned number of surface combatants was also 15, and the planned number of subs was 4.

Short and sweet question- is a fleet of 12 Rivers and 12 Vigilance 100ish CDC's more desirable than a fleet of 15 Rivers and 12 autocannon armed OPV's?


What if its 9 Rivers and 15-18 CDC's, and the CDC's evolve into a full on 4000 tonne frigate akin to the Aussie pick?
interesting that the Australian general purpose frigate is referred to as a Tier 2 surface combatant with its 32 VLS. I guess its not a Tier 1 air defence destroyer or a Tier 1 anti submarine frigate but still seems a substantial ship
your 9 Rivers would match the Aussies
3 Hobarts and 6 Hunters and then add the 11? Mogamis but that seems to be the complete opposite of the intent of maintaining one major surface combatant and its resulting benefits of scale
 
interesting that the Australian general purpose frigate is referred to as a Tier 2 surface combatant with its 32 VLS.
Just a minor point, the number of VLS cells matter les than the capability of the sensors to detect and target what you want to engage.

What are the Mogami class giving up to have more launchers, less expense, and less crew?
 
Just a minor point, the number of VLS cells matter les than the capability of the sensors to detect and target what you want to engage.

What are the Mogami class giving up to have more launchers, less expense, and less crew?
impossible for me to say. At 142m long and 6200 tonnes full load its not exactly a baby
I have read people that complain about the height of its decks and that its radar is only x band but im not clear on what that means practically other than its shorter ranged?
 
What are the Mogami class giving up to have more launchers, less expense, and less crew?
Mogami was specifically designed around minimal crewing from the start, to the point where the ship can apparently operate with as low as 60 people onboard in a worst case scenario. This has been achieved by cutting "redundant" system controls throughout the ship, and basically routing literally everything through the CIC. Examples would be damage control spaces outside the CIC and the engine control room have apparently been eliminated, everything is controlled from the CIC and bridge without local redundancies. Their engine room is designed to be operated without manning at all.

It is very important to realize the purpose that the Mogami class was designed for, as a strictly second line, low cost, low manning replacement for existing Japanese destroyer/destroyer escort classes alongside mine warfare ships from the 1980's/before. They've aggressively cut manning requirements and construction costs (through what is mentioned above/below and items like not fitting VLS) to make sure they can bring ships to the fleet on the cheap, and actually man them.

This doesn't even get into the fact that Japanese ships generally have far less stringent design standards and survivability requirements, largely due to the fact the JMSDF has no real combat experience and desire ease of construction/low cost which comes from these lessened requirements. Even in the warship designs they've heavily taken from US counterparts, they drastically cut requirements to ensure lower costs. Examples would be with the Kongo class (based off the Burke), they have far less comprehensive CBRN facilities, shock requirements are below US basic requirements, they've broken US design/build requirements for unbroken cable lengths internally, with redundancy lost from double stacking cables inside passageways as well. The Japanese also run electrical cables and put other internal components within the double hull itself, alongside generally using much closer to a mercantile standard versus a "warship" construction standard. This is another reason why Japanese surface ships seemingly have shorter careers compared to the international norm.

Even by international standards and especially in comparison to other vessels of their size/tonnage, the Mogami class are frankly death traps. If they take any kind of hit or reasonable bit of damage, the total lack of redundancy and the small crew overall basically dooms the ships immediately. Japan accepted this risk due to their doctrine of domestic use, and the fact they frankly needed ships for low crewing requirements/overall build cost. This is what is missed when people compare them to other designs and try to figure out how they get everything they have.
 
Before we even get to defining exactly what a CDC is, we should be considering cutting the RCDs?
Yes. Considering isn't doing - and unnecessarily anchoring on decisions made under a fundamentally different problem set: different threat environment, different constraints, different timeline requirements, different solution options- is objectively bad strategic planning and leadership, a seriously myopic approach to decision making. The answers to what the CDX* needs to be, can be, ends up being, how many we need, how many we can have, and how many Rivers we need, are all interdependent.

X* Purposeful substitution from C. Seems like the scope creep has us right on the line between wanting Corvettes and Frigates anyway. What if the cutting the last 3 Rivers is the difference between the 2nd class being an upgunned Knud Rassmussen and a full on CPF 2.0?


Edit to add- everything should be on the table. Could that include paring the CDC back to a self defence capable MCM/OPV ship, cutting the number, and putting the $$$ of the upscoped CDC into upping the total number of Rivers and getting more faster? We (the leadership of the county) don't know unless we/they consider
 
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interesting that the Australian general purpose frigate is referred to as a Tier 2 surface combatant with its 32 VLS. I guess its not a Tier 1 air defence destroyer or a Tier 1 anti submarine frigate but still seems a substantial ship
your 9 Rivers would match the Aussies
3 Hobarts and 6 Hunters and then add the 11? Mogamis but that seems to be the complete opposite of the intent of maintaining one major surface combatant and its resulting benefits of scale
In addition to Rainbow's insight on overall quality, I'll add the the Mogami's 32 VLS are only Self-Defence (or at best Tactical) length. A whole pisspot full of ESSM plus maybe ASROC capability, but no Tomahawks, no SM-2/3/6.

Are the resulting benefits of scale and consistency genuinely best practice, or constraint driven satisficing adopted because of lean times?
 
In the meantime we have to spool up the 2 AORs, actual personnel issues with the RCDs wont really come up until the 30s
presumably there will be some training adjustments

8400
AOR 2x200=400
AOPS 6x65=390
SSK 3x60=180
HAL 12x250= 3000
MCDV 4x45=180
4150

15x210=3150
2x200=400
6x65=390
12x50=600
4540

interesting that the Australian general purpose frigate is referred to as a Tier 2 surface combatant with its 32 VLS. I guess its not a Tier 1 air defence destroyer or a Tier 1 anti submarine frigate but still seems a substantial ship
your 9 Rivers would match the Aussies
3 Hobarts and 6 Hunters and then add the 11? Mogamis but that seems to be the complete opposite of the intent of maintaining one major surface combatant and its resulting benefits of scale
So, based on your back of the napkin calculations, the RCN needs to come up with a total of roughly 400 more sailors over the next 20yrs? I have faith that they can manage that.
 
So, based on your back of the napkin calculations, the RCN needs to come up with a total of roughly 400 more sailors over the next 20yrs? I have faith that they can manage that.
Maybe im sure someone will correct or add better context. Plus there is obvious support personnels required. Double it? Triple ?
 
So the RCN needs to have a net increase of roughly 135 sailors a year for 20yrs. If we add in 12 CDC, another 2 JSS and a pair of sub recovery ships, back of the napkin means 245 new sailors a yr for the next 20yrs.

That's just to fill sea going billets. To fill everything I would triple that.
 
In addition to Rainbow's insight on overall quality, I'll add the the Mogami's 32 VLS are only Self-Defence (or at best Tactical) length. A whole pisspot full of ESSM plus maybe ASROC capability, but no Tomahawks, no SM-2/3/6.

Are the resulting benefits of scale and consistency genuinely best practice, or constraint driven satisficing adopted because of lean times?
so based on all the above i think it is fair to say that the Mogami does fit into a Tier 2
so Australia is going with
a 3 ship class of AAD Hobarts
a 6 ship class of ASW+ Hunters
and 11 lets say CDC+ for now/general purpose frigates
a total of 20 ships from 3 classes
I think i prefer our run of 15 ASW+ Rivers especially since not only are we aiming to provide the RCN with ships but maintain our shipbuilding industry. A longer run should give greater benefits on that and allow us time to develop and figure out what replaces the Rivers on the construction end

From my reading here there seems to be some agreement that it would be
ideal if the Rivers had more VLS and that the RCN is looking into ways of adding them to future batch's?
a replacement for the Kingston class in part that retains the lower operating costs vs the AOPS?
concern about the possibility of a "frigate gap" with keeping the Halifax's going until they can be replaced by the Rivers and if that course of action even makes sense?
wonder if the various proposal that have bounced around regarding the CDC can accomplish or fill in for the above?

Your numbers have no MCDV replacement/ CDC placeholder correct?
correct didnt want to overly complicate things
 
That's just to fill sea going billets. To fill everything I would triple that.
Would this be 'admin/support' roles performed onshore? Like Dentists, Accountants, Nurses, Physiotherapists, Supply Clerks, Munitions maintenance workers?
 
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