New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Lumber]

AOPS shouldn't be sent anywhere where it is vulnerable to the threats your describe, just like how we did not send CPF's into the Red Sea as they were not adequately able to deal with the threat environment at hand. Putting a 57mm gun aboard the ships isn't sufficient insurance to risk valuable vessels and their crews in peacetime against these threats.

But we did send CPFs into the Red Sea...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Again, there are other priorities for the money.

The CA completely lacks GBAD, how likely do you think it is that the RCN will get GBAD/CUAS systems for warehouses before the CA gets those systems for the troops in Latvia?

Once the CA has systems and figures out what works, it makes sense for them RCN to evaluate those systems against the RCN's requirements.

There may be a lot more money, but it isn't infinite, and the people required to run the projects aren't falling from the skies in abundance.

I think he means having the system stored in a warehouse ready to go, not guarding the warehouse. Given the lead times even now for those systems, come a major peer conflict, Canada will find those systems non-existent within the timeframe.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

But we did send CPFs into the Red Sea...

Quite a few of them actually.

And in the Black sea too!

Any other colour of sea we should be thinking about before they retire?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Quite a few of them actually.

And in the Black sea too!

Any other colour of sea we should be thinking about before they retire?

The White Sea!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The White Sea!

 

[Czech_pivo]

View attachment 98180

In an Armada!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Quite a few of them actually.

And in the Black sea too!

Any other colour of sea we should be thinking about before they retire?

Level 10 if you get them into the Caspian Sea.........

 

[Lumber]

Quite a few of them actually.

And in the Black sea too!

Any other colour of sea we should be thinking about before they retire?

I think he meant during the period that the Houthis seemed to be playing whackamole with every ship passing thru, and yes, we sent CPFs thru during that period.

 

[Furniture]

I think he means having the system stored in a warehouse ready to go, not guarding the warehouse. Given the lead times even now for those systems, come a major peer conflict, Canada will find those systems non-existent within the timeframe.

I know what he means, and that doesn't change the reality that buying a bunch of systems to store "just in case" is a far lower priority than buying systems for use right now.

The CA, the people most likely to actually needs CUAS systems, have none. There is a zero percent chance the RCN will go out and buy systems just to shove in a warehouse in case something comes up in 10 years...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And that is why the CAF is always in crisis mode. Warstock, both equipment and munitions are critical and the Navy can plan and ask for it, at the same time the Army is asking for their stuff.

 

[DBNSG]

I think he meant during the period that the Houthis seemed to be playing whackamole with every ship passing thru, and yes, we sent CPFs thru during that period.

I believe MV ASTERIX was quite a timely asset to be in the Red Sea.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I think he meant during the period that the Houthis seemed to be playing whackamole with every ship passing thru, and yes, we sent CPFs thru during that period.

My mistake, I wasn't aware we sent CPF's through during that. They really don't have the required armament and magazine depth to be a worthwhile asset there.

 

[Lumber]

My mistake, I wasn't aware we sent CPF's through during that. They really don't have the required armament and magazine depth to be a worthwhile asset there.

They weren't deployed as part of Operation Prosperity Guardian, but they passed thru.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Problem with intelligence, is you need to be right almost every time and then very lucky if you are not right. There is a lot that I like about the AOP's, but the self-defence armament is not one of them and the RCN as an organization has not covered itself in glory via it's decision making processes, either in equipment or personal management. I will continue to argue they cheaped out on the armament/sensor side of the equation, and I fear it will come back to haunt us one day.

I'm not sure if you have be inside an AOPV. Its not just weapons and sensors, I imagine she would be a nightmare for damage control.

And that is why the CAF is always in crisis mode. Warstock, both equipment and munitions are critical and the Navy can plan and ask for it, at the same time the Army is asking for their stuff.

In an ideal world I agree with you.

 

[Furniture]

And that is why the CAF is always in crisis mode. Warstock, both equipment and munitions are critical and the Navy can plan and ask for it, at the same time the Army is asking for their stuff.

No, the CAF is always in crisis mode because it has been chronically underfunded for decades. You can't make-up for that shortfall in a year, and you can't make-up for the total shortfalls by purchasing kit that is unlikely to ever be used, before you buy kit that is needed now.

The RCN running a CUAS/GBAD programme concurrent to the army, just so it can potentially buy a different system, and place them in warehouses is bad use of money. Let the CA figure out the systems, then see if those systems are compatible with what the RCN needs, then stockpile kit for the RCN, in the event it is needed.

If we are buying war stock, it should be the parts and munitions necessary to keep our actual combatants in the fight for as long as possible. After that is done, then maybe the extras start to make sense. Or maybe we are back to chronic underfunding by then, and at least our actual warships will be ready for the fight.

 

[dapaterson]

No, the CAF is always in crisis mode because it has been chronically underfunded for decades. You can't make-up for that shortfall in a year, and you can't make-up for the total shortfalls by purchasing kit that is unlikely to ever be used, before you buy kit that is needed now.

Counterpoint: The CAF had appetites not aligned with resourcing, so rather than ever making hard decisions, as a deliberate measure under-resourced the sustainment of the enterprise to permit the protection of Potemkin facades.

 

[Furniture]

Counterpoint: The CAF had appetites not aligned with resourcing, so rather than ever making hard decisions, as a deliberate measure under-resourced the sustainment of the enterprise to permit the protection of Potemkin facades.

Fair point, but the GoC also had asks beyond the resources provided. Who bears the brunt of the blame, an institution asked to do more with less, or the institution asking for more while providing less?

 

[dapaterson]

Fair point, but the GoC also had asks beyond the resources provided. Who bears the brunt of the blame, an institution asked to do more with less, or the institution asking for more while providing less?

The CAF promised capabilities it could not / could only with great difficulties provide. Based on org charts, not on the status of personnel, materiel and equipment (the triad of readiness).

But, yes, there's plenty of finger pointing to do.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Counterpoint: The CAF had appetites not aligned with resourcing, so rather than ever making hard decisions, as a deliberate measure under-resourced the sustainment of the enterprise to permit the protection of Potemkin facades.

Honest question, when was the last time the CAF actually spent the entirety of our budget and didn't give any back at the end of the year ?

 

[dapaterson]

Honest question, when was the last time the CAF actually spent the entirety of our budget and didn't give any back at the end of the year ?

By budget do you mean the main estimates? Supps A? Supps B? Supps C?

Are we talking about cash based accounting or accrual accounting?

But, broadly speaking, I think the metric is "how close without going over did DND/CAF spend" since it would be technically illegal to overspend by even 1c.