New CF Bride Can't Get Medical Coverage for Birth in SK

[Blackadder1916]

A Canadian Citizen is having a child and wants to have the baby in Canada. A fetus is considered a "child" after 6 weeks I believe ? Where you need a death certificate and all that shabbam if there's a miscarriage. So in my mind, the father has a dependant after 6 weeks and all medical costs related to the baby should be covered by our medical system since the father is a Canadian Citizen.

The soon to be father (he is not one yet since the baby has not been born) may be a citizen but citizenship does not automatically confer eligibity for provincial health insurance coverage on those who may be married to (or be the offspring) of the citizen.  Nor does citizenship automatically confer immediate access of the same provincial coverage on the citizen himself.  The as yet un-born is not a citizen either, nor is he a dependant, since for the purpose of law (the laws and regulations concerning health insurance anyway) , he does not yet exist.

Citizenship Act ( R.S., 1985, c. C-29 )

PART I  THE RIGHT TO CITIZENSHIP
Persons who are citizens
3. (1) Subject to this Act, a person is a citizen if
(a) the person was born in Canada after February 14, 1977;
(b) the person was born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 and at the time of his birth one of his parents, other than a parent who adopted him, was a citizen;
(c) the person has been granted or acquired citizenship pursuant to section 5 or 11 and, in the case of a person who is fourteen years of age or over on the day that he is granted citizenship, he has taken the oath of citizenship;
(d) the person was a citizen immediately before February 15, 1977; or
(e) the person was entitled, immediately before February 15, 1977, to become a citizen under paragraph 5(1)(b) of the former Act.

Vital Statistics Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. V.4

"birth means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a fetus that did at any time after being completely expelled or extracted from the mother breathe or show any other sign of life, whether or not the umbilical cord was cut or the placenta attached;

"still-birth means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of conception either after the twentieth week of pregnancy or after the product of conception has attained the weight of 500 grams or more, and where after such expulsion or extraction there is no breathing, beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord or movement of voluntary muscle.

9.1 Every still-birth that takes place in Ontario shall be registered in accordance with the regulations.

from the regulations to the act
19. (1) The following provisions apply with necessary modifications to still-births:
1. Sections 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 17, .....
2. Subsections 2 (1) to (3), ....
(1.1) Upon the still-birth in Ontario of a child, the following person shall complete a medical certificate, in the prescribed form, of the cause of the still-birth and shall deliver it to the funeral director or other person in charge of the body:
1. The legally qualified medical practitioner in attendance at the still-birth.
2. A coroner if there is no legally qualified medical practitioner in attendance at the still-birth.

Certificates are completed for still-births for the same reason as birth and death certificates.  We want to know how many people we have, that they legally exist and that their existence was not shortened by illegal means.  The completion of certificates for still-births does not confer any rights on a fetus.

Even though you specifically mentioned that it doesn't matter whether he was military,  I'll provide the following.  At one time the CF operated hospitals that provided care to dependants, mainly overseas but also at locations in Canada.  I can't speak personally to any events concerning facilities located in Canada, but at least once in Europe (through a strange turn of circumstances) a CF member's dependant was provided services and he did not have health insurance coverage for the dependant.  He was surprised when presented the bill for the service (all services to non-military patients were billed).  He still had to pay it.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Not entirely surprised at a political response - wonder if the briefing note that went with this has any footnotes to this thread? 

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Health minister to review soldier's case
James Wood, Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, 31 Jan 08
Article link

REGINA -- Health Minister Don McMorris said Wednesday the province is looking at what it can do to help a Canadian soldier whose family is facing medical bills of more than $20,000 for their expected child.

The case of Master Cpl. Daniel Joudrey, who is stationed at Dundurn and has served in Afghanistan and Bosnia, became public last week.

His wife Calliopi, who is from Cyprus, has not finalized her status as a landed immigrant in Canada and has no medical coverage.

With Calliopi scheduled for a caesarian section on Feb. 5, the family has been told a hospital stay would cost $3,700 per day, not including fees for the surgeon, anesthesiologist or medication.

"I'm very aware of that story," said McMorris following an announcement on new cancer drug funding.

"I want to see what we can do because it just, you know, intuitively, we should be able to do something there but I want to find out whether we can. It's not fair for me to say we're going to do something right now until I find out that we can. But I have the ministry looking at various options."

A Saskatchewan Health official told The National Post last week that non-residents are usually charged 125 per cent by Canadian hospitals because of additional administrative fees.

McMorris would not elaborate on whether the options under consideration include Sask. Health footing the bill, but said he hoped to have an answer potentially as soon as today.

Joudrey, an electrician with the forces, said last week he had sought help from the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, the provincial Health Ministry and his military superiors with no success.

On Wednesday, the 14-year military veteran said he had not heard anything since but was heartened when told of McMorris's comments.

"It's good to know that it's made it up some sort of channels," said Joudrey, who met his wife in Cypress in 2006 when he was on break from a tour in Afghanistan.

They were married in 2007 but her application for permanent resident status has been delayed by missing paperwork.

[email protected]

 

[Gunner98]

Province to cover medical bill

A military family facing a huge financial burden just days before the birth of their child was thrilled and relieved Thursday as the provincial government stepped in to ensure they would not be stuck with a medical bill of over $20,000. Saskatchewan Party Health Minister Don McMorris said his ministry has asked the Saskatoon Regional Health Authority to not bill the family of Master Cpl. Daniel Joudrey until the paperwork issues are resolved. (James Wood, Province will cover costs of caesarean, RegLP, A8)

Case closed.

 

[geo]

Gawd... the CF... we ARE the flavour of the day!

ars ago, this issue would have been flushed into oblivion - too bad, so sad

What a difference ten years make

 

[Blakey]

...and, the link.
http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=9aa4ba8f-8367-4cbf-b253-3891b63a13bf

 

[PMedMoe]

This opens the door for other people to marry non-residents without doing their homework..... :

 

[c_canuk]

I'm sorry but if you marry a non citizen and move them to the country and initiate the paperwork in good faith, there should be NO reason health coverage cannot be applied to them.

The amount of money that is being saved by not providing coverage to people who will be legitimate canadians in a short time is a drop in the bucket compared to what is doled out to people who fly to canada, destroy their paperwork in mid flight then claim refugee status on touchdown. These people get full Canadian benifits while they wait for their hearing which can take up to 6 years if they show up at all.

we can give illegals full coverage but not the wife of a service member? Disgusting.

Just because that is the way the system is set up, doesn't make it right.

 

[geo]

c_canuk.... cool your jets!

As you said, people who have done all their paperwork in good faith....
Pmedmoe brought up the matter of those who do it out of bad faith...

Disgusting?  Nope - but it IS disturbing

 

[The Bread Guy]

This opens the door for other people to marry non-residents without doing their homework..... :

Ah yes, the public sector decision cycle:

There is a problem - government must do (or be seen to do) something.
Here is a solution - make it happen.
"We are doing something - here is our solution."


Did the solution solve the problem, though?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I'm sorry but if you marry a non citizen and move them to the country and initiate the paperwork in good faith, there should be NO reason health coverage cannot be applied to them.

The amount of money that is being saved by not providing coverage to people who will be legitimate canadians in a short time is a drop in the bucket compared to what is doled out to people who fly to canada, destroy their paperwork in mid flight then claim refugee status on touchdown. These people get full Canadian benifits while they wait for their hearing which can take up to 6 years if they show up at all.

we can give illegals full coverage but not the wife of a service member? Disgusting.

Just because that is the way the system is set up, doesn't make it right.

Just so it is clear about this story; (according to the media reports) a foreign national and her (also non-Canadian) nine year old child came to Canada, probably on visitor status (citizens of Cyprus do not normally require a formal visa to visit Canada).  We do not know if she informed the CBSA officer who screened her on arrival if marriage and intention to stay in the country was the purpose of the visit. 
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/arriving.asp

You will not be allowed into Canada if you give false or incomplete information, or if you do not satisfy the officer that you are eligible for entry into Canada. You will also have to convince the officer that you will leave Canada at the end of your authorized stay in Canada.

After her arrival she married a Canadian citizen whom she had met previously outside Canada.   That her spouse was a Canadian soldier is only incidental but does become significant later.  Luckily for them, Canada’s policy is that spouses (who are already in Canada) of citizens may remain in the country while immigration procedures are ongoing.  If they had married outside Canada, there is a possibility that she may not have been permitted to enter Canada until immigration procedures had been completed.  She subsequently became pregnant and started to incur significant health care costs.

That’s when the significance of her spouse’s employment becomes important.  Canadian soldiers are experiencing a level of public admiration that has not been seen for over 60 years.  If he had been an “ordinary” citizen this story would not, most likely, have received the attention it did.  It is probably the sole reason why the Sask Health Minister flinched.  Flinch may be an inappropriate term because he is a politician and there few politicians who won’t take any opportunity to suck up to the voters by embracing whatever is the current favour of the month.

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/story.html?id=00033bba-6b3f-4456-86e1-6cf18b6b81f8&k=79018

However, Saskatchewan Party Health Minister Don McMorris said his ministry has asked the Saskatoon Regional Health Authority to not bill the family until the paperwork issues are resolved.
Once she receives her landed immigrant status, she will then be covered by Medicare and the family won't be charged.
"As soon as I'm able to get a hold of them, of course they'll be notified their thoughts and attention can be put towards the birth of their child," said McMorris.
"For most people, myself, it makes sense this person would be covered in our province. We support our forces completely."
McMorris said the ministry is also talking to the federal Department of National Defence about their potential role in payments.
Under normal circumstances, a person who is seeking landed immigrant status and whose paperwork is in the process of being finalized would pay their medical bills and then be reimbursed when they become permanent residents.
McMorris said this situation has been complicated by missing paperwork, which include a criminal record check and medical records.

As to a comparison of health benefits available to refugee claimants (“illegals”?) vice those given to “the wife of a service member”; I grant there are problems with our country’s immigration and refugee policies and procedures.  However, provincial health insurance coverage is generally not given to refugee claimants until such time as a determination is made as to status.  There is the Interim Federal Health Program (IFHP) coverage for those refugee claimants and ‘protected persons’ who are unable to afford private insurance or are otherwise ineligible for provincial coverage.  This applies to most in this category, but, while adequate, IFHP does not provide coverage to the same extent as any provincial plan or a full coverage private plan as may be available in Canada.  As administered by FAS Benefits Administrators, it is also (in my personal opinion) a pain in the *** to deal with on the part of providers and as such sometimes becomes a disincentive to regularly provide service to refugee claimants.   But I can also say the same thing (to a much lesser degree) about Blue Cross for CF members.

 

[armyvern]

I really don't care that he's military or not. Here's the facts:

A Canadian Citizen is having a child and wants to have the baby in Canada. A fetus is considered a "child" after 6 weeks I believe ? Where you need a death certificate and all that shabbam if there's a miscarriage. So in my mind, the father has a dependant after 6 weeks and all medical costs related to the baby should be covered by our medical system since the father is a Canadian Citizen.

Your facts are wrong. As someone who has miscarried at 17 weeks and 15 weeks respectively -- there was NO "death certificate and all that shabbam afterwards". Both my husband and I WERE Canadian citizens at the time of my miscarriages. Certainly, a non-citizen would not get "death certificates & all that shabbam" when two citizens are not?

Where you err is here:

So in my mind, the father has a dependant after 6 weeks (no he does not) and all medical costs related to directly relating to medical procedures performed ON the baby should be covered by our medical system since the father child is a Canadian Citizen.

This is exactly how it IS. The child's medical expenses ARE covered as the child IS a citizen. The MOTHER is not, and therefore HER expenses associated with her medical procedures to have that child are not covered. The father has NO dependant until that child IS born, which of course occurs AFTER the female has already incurred the medical costs to HAVE the child. Labour & delivery (and their associated expenses) comes first --- the child comes after.

That's how it is. Otherwise, you'd have every expectant mother from the United States crossing the border to have their child in this country at OUR expense ... just so they'd have no bills to pay in the US. After all, their child would be a Canadian citizen too if born here.

 

[muskrat89]

Otherwise, you'd have every expectant mother from the United States crossing the border to have their child in this country at OUR expense ... just so they'd have no bills to pay in the US. After all, their child would be a Canadian citizen too if born here.

Which is exactly what happens in the southern border - US states. ERs can't turn people away; babies born here are US citizens, even if the parents are not.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I think it's commendable that the Sask government is helping this family out. I'd like to think they'd do the same for other folks who find themselves in this dilemma too....if we can waste billions on gun registrys and adscams it won't bankrupt us to help people having babies.
I much prefer the system in the US for the military where the whole family is taken care of by the military. Their hospitals have everthing from pediatrics to geriatrics. Care of the military family is better there IMHO.

 

[Gunner98]

The US Tricare system pays for more than 9.2 million people (serving, retired and their families) at a cost of close to $30 Billion per year and it is draining the US military coffers.  There is no desire to have civilian health insurance when your care can be provided by the DoD.  It is a double-edged sword.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think it's commendable that the Sask government is helping this family out. I'd like to think they'd do the same for other folks who find themselves in this dilemma too....if we can waste billions on gun registrys and adscams it won't bankrupt us to help people having babies.

Ah, but as Minister Jim Hacker said in "Yes, Minister".... "'This would create a dangerous precedent'. Translation: 'If we do the right thing now, we might have to do the right thing again next time'."

Family 'betrayed' by government's refusal to pay baby bill
Sask. government puts bill on hold for military family
CBC.ca, 4 Feb 08
Article link

A Winnipeg man facing a $10,000 bill for his son's birth says the Manitoba government should pay the bill, just as the Saskatchewan government has for a Canadian soldier stationed there.

Mike Kibsey and his American wife Caroline met three years ago in Japan. When she became pregnant last year, they moved to Winnipeg from Asia to have their baby in Canada. At the time, Kibsey said, embassy officials in Manila told them Manitoba Health would cover the cost of the baby's birth.

A credit agency is now threatening legal action against the Kibseys in an attempt to collect a $10,000 bill from the Health Sciences Centre.A credit agency is now threatening legal action against the Kibseys in an attempt to collect a $10,000 bill from the Health Sciences Centre.

But when the baby was born in September, they learned Manitoba Health's policy is to charge non-residents for medical procedures. A credit agency is now threatening legal action against the family in an effort to collect a $10,000 bill.

Manitoba Health officials say new immigrants do not qualify for provincial health insurance until they're granted status by Citizenship and Immigration.

The Kibseys are still waiting for Caroline's application for permanent residency to be processed.

Kibsey recently heard of what he believes is a similar case in Saskatchewan ....

 

[armyvern]

Qu'elle suprise.

NOT.

And, I'm sure that both husbands pay their taxes, but one's wife has now been treated specially.

I now see this heading up to the Supreme Court ... just as it always does when one Province covers something that another does not given Canada's universal healthcare system (that used to be for citizens).

Let the borders for baby-bearers spring wide open -- I feel an influx coming on. Yay!! Up go my taxes to pay for it all!!  :-\

 

[PMedMoe]

Let the borders for baby-bearers spring wide open -- I feel an influx coming on. Yay!! Up go my taxes to pay for it all!!  :-\

Guess that's why I'm paying for Provincial Health care....

 

[armyvern]

Guess that's why I'm paying for Provincial Health care....

Whole other thread on that. Along with the reasons why. 

 

[geo]

Health care comes under provincial jurisdiction.
What one province decides to do does not guarantee that it will be translated to equal service in another.
It's messy but, that's how they wrote the rules & allocated responsibilities... So, for the fella living in Manitoba = deal with it.  For the Sask gov't who has agreed to cover the costs..... you have really put your foot in it this time.

 

[PMedMoe]

Whole other thread on that. Along with the reasons why. 

Hence the wink.

Health care comes under provincial jurisdiction.
What one province decides to do does not guarantee that it will be translated to equal service in another.
It's messy but, that's how they wrote the rules & allocated responsibilities... So, for the fella living in Manitoba = deal with it.  For the Sask gov't who has agreed to cover the costs..... you have really put your foot in it this time.

geo, you're right.  The SK gov't has put their foot in it and set a precedent.