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New CF Fitness Policies Coming

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pbi said:
...and I know that you can fight your way back if you want to.
There are countless successful examples of guys in their late 30s deciding to get back in shape; it's difficult, but it can be done by a determined person.
I also agree we don't need olympic athletes, at any level of Leadership; we need people who will set a good example by doing regular PT, who will at least meet the CF standard on fitness every year. We need people who will take action on those who try to avoid taking the test, and on those who fail it. It's not just a matter of Op readiness, it's a matter of good health and positive image.
As PBI said earlier, for the young olympians out there: morning PT is not a new standard every day.
 
my SSM just addressed my whole unit telling us we should start getting our shit together PT wise. Good to hear its coming down the pipe and thats for a Reservist unit.
 
I agree with PBI, the army fitness manual is a great tool, and could be used by all units for morning PT, as long as we don't push people so hard that we discourage them. the AFM has levels, and as long as you are training towards your next benchmark, then good on you!
The bigger problem that all of us, Cpl to General, need to take ownership of is mentoring the troops to act and think like soldiers.
When i was in maint pl with an infantry bn, all of us maintainers were keen and tried to do the soldier stuff with the rifle companies as often as possible, as well we tried to stay fit, pt was every morning, regardless of VOR. When i was posted to a second line unit i was pretty much ridiculed by my peers for such things as scrim on my helmet. "your not in an infantry bn anymore" they'd say. My response was always the same "i am still a soldier, remember our motto, by skill and by fighting" but they would just get a chuckle out of it.
Until that kind of attitude changes, and it looks like it's gonna have to ;D, it'll be an uphill battle, which is ok cause i like hill training!!
 
Fatwog:

Until the kind of attitude changes, and it looks like it's gonna have to , it'll be an uphill battle, which is ok cause i like hill training!!

That is it, right there. Attitude. We can go on for hours (as I love to do...) about how we got to this wretched state, but that's just ploughing over old ground. What has to happen now is change. Some people will try to rationalize and normalize unfitness. Some people will winge (I can hear it already...) and some will decide that this isn't the life for them anymore. So be it.

Cheers
 
trucker00 said:
I think the CF should dedicate 25% of the day to PT (mandatory). I don't think there is any reason for member to logged on the their computer any earlier than 1000hrs.

Don't we already?

most army units already dedicate the first 2-3 hs of each work day to pt.

perhaps its not the time put in...but the effort.
 
Armymedic said:
Don't we already?

most army units already dedicate the first 2-3 hs of each work day to pt.

perhaps its not the time put in...but the effort.

Very true - I would hazard that if EVERY day started with a short, fast run (2-3km in 6-12 mins depending on ability) and followed that with a good hour of circuit trg, and then a decent stretch, the EXPRESS test would be passed - all the time.

It's been said here already, but the same trades who pi$$ and moan about having too much work to do are the same ones who are nowhere to be seen at 1500 on friday....
 
Rant on.
    Actually some units have no alloted time for PT.  Most notably are the "operational" air force squadrons that are far to busy putting planes in the air to risk losing their personnel to pt induced injuries (I hope everybody can hear the sarcasm in my typing).  It is a shame to see the  pers on remedial pt here in CL.  The units that have alloted time have almost no-one on remedial pt.  (go figure?)  Some of us work hard to pass the express test yearly (laugh if you will.)  Some of us work through injuries and pain on a daily basis to avoid being placed on a more restrictive medcat so we can stay in the forces cause we enjoy the career that much.
      It is nice to see the desk jockeys in the puzzle palace enforce the existing policies for a change as long as they are subject to the same policies and restrictions.  I've had an MO apologize to me for placing me on category when he personally knew people who couldn't lift 25 lbs over their heads!  I, for one, am tired of seeing pers collect pensions, be excused from testing, and still get promoted with their peers. 
 
    Rant off.
 
It's good to see that we are getting good input and advice from the civvy aspect (FITSUMO), young soldiers (RCAC_011), and senior soldiers/officers (pbi). So it isn't just me that it is pissed off afterall, tilting at the windmill that is the CF PT standards, like a crazed Don Quixote.

And since I was stewing over it for the last 2 hours, I will give a quick burst Tx at Combat Camera: I will forgive you for knowing nothing about me, and I know even less about you. And I will forgive you if you haven't read the previous 10 pages of posts in this thread prior to posting, or my long history of rants on similar subjects. I say this because I got in a pissing contest once with someone on these forums because I hadn't read all of his posts, and didn't "know" him. Fair enough. Telling me to go for a run, as though I am complaining about the need to do PT made my blood boil. Unless you run marathons, I would argue that even though I don't know you, I probably run, and work out, more than you. I have done Mountain Man twice (although I didn't do as well as I would have liked, I finished 44th in 04, and 83rd in 05, both times under 6hrs 30min), and I have run the Cabot Trail Relay twice (2 legs in 04, 1 Leg - Cape Smokey in 05). Yes, I have been idle in the not so distant past, but I have never even come close to failing any fitness testing I have done. In fact, I run the 13km BFT (1:24:00 and 1:31:00 this year) just to show that it isn't as hard as people say it is. Anyway, next time you try to give advice like this, don't.

Al
 
Just a quick response to PBI.Yes the marines do something similar to what we do in the aspect of sex and age have different standards.

Minimum Fitness Requirements for Each PFT Event - Males
Age Pull-Ups Crunches 3-Mile Run
17-26 3 50 28:00
27-39 3 45 29:00
40-45 3 45 30:00
46+ 3 40 33:00
 
Minimum Fitness Requirements for Each PFT Event - Females
Age Flexed-Arm Hang Crunches 3-Mile Run
17-26 15 Seconds 50 31:00
27-39 15 Seconds 45 32:00
40-45 15 Seconds 45 33:00
46+ 15 Seconds 40 36:00
(notice no chin ups)
   
   So for those who said they have ONE standard thats obviously not true.Where they differ from us is they use the USMC weight/height ratio scale and if you fail that you go get your body fat checked.I cant find it right now but i believe it was 18 percent allowed,and if you scored high on your physical fitness check you were allowed 22 percent.They are also tested semi-annually with reserves tested annually.

   Just a question for the guys who did the BMI (I've only been in since 2000) what happened if a person failed it back then?Body fat testing? When was they last time they used it?

  Cant remember the name of the movie, maybe it was universal soldier?? The army took these children made them soldiers from birth.The fat kid that fall's out on a run........that was funny.

  With all this talking of fitness I'm wondering how many briefings we are all going to have to sit through and learn about why fat people are fat, and the Canadian food guide etc....

  They are actually sounding serious about this and I hope they implement the coopers test or something else similar as testing. Or is it just going to be the BFT yet again (who cant walk 13 dam kilometers).

cheers


 
Allan,

I guess I should have put a smiley face after my running comment …. 

The point I was trying to make last night is that leaders have a responsibility to make sure their troops are in shape.  It’s not up to the individual.  If you or anyone else doesn' t believe me, here’s a quote from General Hillier himself on the subject:  “This is leadership business, and I expect the support of leaders at all levels to ensure the (Canadian Forces) is fit to fight."

Leading by example is a good start. 
 
  With all this talking of fitness I'm wondering how many briefings we are all going to have to sit through and learn about why fat people are fat, and the Canadian food guide etc....

We had a health and nutrition briefing given to us by the PSP staff, and it was very informative. I had suggested that we have one given, because there are way too many people who make the wrong choices when looking for something to eat (in the field, mess hall, canteens) even when there are healthy choices. These same people then blame the "system" for being overweight. The PSP pointed out many myths, basic nutrition advice, talked about supplements. I already knew most of this stuff, but I still found it informative and interesting. Keep in mind, I can count one one hand how many times I've had similar "official" unit briefings in my 18 year career. Compare that to the countless harassment, HAZMAT, environmental, etc, etc briefings. Of course, people said it was useless, but these types would complain about anything. Education is key.

The point I was trying to make last night is that leaders have a responsibility to make sure their troops are in shape.  It’s not up to the individual.  If you or anyone else doesn' t believe me, here’s a quote from General Hillier himself on the subject:  “This is leadership business, and I expect the support of leaders at all levels to ensure the (Canadian Forces) is fit to fight."

Leading by example is a good start. 

I think we all get your point that this is a leadership issue. The "support of all leaders at all levels" means that we must support the policy. I agree. I do NOT agree that it isn't up to the individual. You are absolving pers of their DUTY to be fit. Just because a leader orders someone to be fit isn't going to make it happen. As the Zen saying goes "Change must come from within....."

Here's an example: At the Armour School we have PT scheduled 5 times a week. Not everyone can make the timings given (instructors on courses, duty pers, etc). Because the instructors are generally in leadership positions, they are expected to do PT a minimum of 3 times a week, when and where they can. Generally, nobody checks up on if people are doing it, because we are mostly Sr NCO's and officers, and are expected to be self-disciplined enough to do it (a quick glance through the Armour School lines would tell you that it isn't happening in 100% of the cases, and I'm sure that every training establishment is the same). Because the CO and OC's have implemented this policy, is that the end of it? Do we have to be treated like children, and have parades to make sure that every single person has done the required PT every week? This would bar us from conducting our mission (training soldiers), and be counterproductive. Hence, it IS an individual responsibility (in this example) to follow the policy.

As for leading by example, I agree. But just because the troops see Sgt Luomala going for a run, doesn't mean that they are going to drop their hoagie and strap on the ASICS. Frankly, I don't run because I see the RSM and CO going for a run (good on them for doing so). I run for me. So that I'm not an embarassment. Call me selfish. Too bad that the out of shape turds (of all rank levels) don't see it that way. A loaded gun to the head is about the only thing that is going to get some people to do more than the bare minimum. But since all of the official policy's say that is all we expect of them, what recourse is there? To be honest, I would love to see mandated remedial PT (which I have only seen implemented a handful of times in my career), but because most of the people who would need it basically already have the JAG and MO's as their fire-team partners, it will take some pretty serious wordology in the next "official" policy for that to happen.

Al
 
rcac_011 said:
They are actually sounding serious about this and I hope they implement the coopers test or something else similar as testing. Or is it just going to be the BFT yet again (who cant walk 13 dam kilometers).

Yep, let's spend even more money on even more standards.

Designing and implementing standards takes time, effort and money away from other activities.  We already have the EXPRES Test, BFT, Army Fitness Standard, JTF2 Coopers Test, Pre Para Fitness Test, Firefighters Fitness Test, etc. etc. as validated, viable and achievable standards.  Instead of re-inventing the wheel everytime someone Purple doesn't measure up, we should re-double our efforts to test to and enforce the standards we already have, and universally at that.  Fund the training.  Provide the resources and facilities to train to the standard.

But the biggest change that has to happen is for the civilian and military "managers" have to accept that work isn't going to get done between, say 0730 and 0900 every day, as PT is being done. As per the CDS's direction and IAW CFAO 50-1 which makes it a command responsibility to permit members to do PT during work hours when time permits. 

"Managers" (commanders) at all levels should be required to justify to higher when time DOESN'T permit and they should be directed to adjust the work schedules accordingly.

Why?

Because if we can make time for social activities and dozens of meetings during the work day, we can make time for PT.

On a side note: CFPSA is already working on a new standard for the over 55 crowd.  The project manager is looking for over 55 year old particiapnts to assist with developing and validaitng the requirements.  Not surprisingly, volunteers are extremely hard to find.

If you're over 55, a CF member and interested, PM me and I'll put you in touch with the Project manager.
 
On a side note: CFPSA is already working on a new standard for the over 55 crowd.  The project manager is looking for over 55 year old particiapnts to assist with developing and validaitng the requirements.  Not surprisingly, volunteers are extremely hard to find.

I used to think that nothing would surprise me anymore in the military, being a veteran of the Combat Bra debacle, hearing that there are people involved in procuring a new purse for female members, Air Force getting blue t-shirts and blue thread for their name/ranks for wear in CADPAT (a camouflage COMBAT uniform, for god's sake!!!!!). But the thought of the standards (probably) being lowered even further, thereby removing the "one army, one standard" mentality, is indeed a sobering thought. I was going to make a joke about what the standards will be, but I think that they will be amusing amusing enough in and of themselves.

Al
 
Allan Luomala said:
I used to think that nothing would surprise me anymore in the military, being a veteran of the Combat Bra debacle, hearing that there are people involved in procuring a new purse for female members, Air Force getting blue t-shirts and blue thread for their name/ranks for wear in CADPAT (a camouflage COMBAT uniform, for god's sake!!!!!). But the thought of the standards (probably) being lowered even further, thereby removing the "one army, one standard" mentality, is indeed a sobering thought. I was going to make a joke about what the standards will be, but I think that they will be amusing amusing enough in and of themselves.

Al

Standards aren't being lowered  for the over 55's.  They don't exist.  The approach here is to validate a standard to be applied to the over 55's so that they can (if capable) serve until CRA 60.

Wanna volunteer someone?  ;D
 
rcac_011 said:
  They are actually sounding serious about this and I hope they implement the coopers test or something else similar as testing. Or is it just going to be the BFT yet again (who cant walk 13 dam kilometers).

You'd be surprised...or then again, maybe you won't.
 
A couple of years back my unit CO implemented a PT test using the Cooper testing method as a guideline. We were to be tested every three months and given a level based on performance. The test was as follows: 2.4 KM run,chinups,set-ups,squat,400m sprint,pushups,and the CF swim test.( I don't remember the levels) For those who failed they were placed on remedial PT with the PSP staff. Failure to improve was supposed to lead to a possible release.
This was unit implemented with no support from Ottawa,So in the end nobody was released and the few who were incapable of passing the test never improved their PT levels. Individuals would report to the MIR and get chits to excuse them from the test by medical staff who felt the CO was a big meany.
The biggest complainers of the testing were the support trades who felt they should not have to perform at the same levels as an infanteer.I am a proponent of one standard for all regardless of sex or trade and In some cases the support trades need it most.( not always!)
I am reminded of my early years as a young Pte. in Bosnia watching an obese(so obese he had a panel sewn into the largest issued commbat shirt  so would have a uniform) Cpl. mechanic stuff his face with ice cream and do half of the work of his fellow mechanics. Why half the work? He was so large he could only work on one type of vehicle.The Iltis, because he was able to lean over the hood. Any other vehicle he couldn't fit under or climb up to do repairs. Hopefully with this new PT policy these types of ind. will have the priviledge and honour of wearing the uniform taken from them. If you can't fit into the largest size of combats issued then you should think of another career choice!
 
Patrolman:
    Back in the days of the BMI we had a few guys who were not allowed to wear their uniforms because they were a "disgrace" to it.  A human rights case proved that this was demeaning and the practice was abolished (along with the BMI standard).  I'm not defending it just informing you of past events. :salute:
 
Haggis said:
Standards aren't being lowered  for the over 55's.  They don't exist.  The approach here is to validate a standard to be applied to the over 55's so that they can (if capable) serve until CRA 60.

Wanna volunteer someone?  ;D

And, perhaps even more importantly, so that we can have a way to stop the CF from turning into an annex of the County Home once we start accumulating a significant number of people over 55. I remain very nervous of this whole "serve till 60" thing: I think it is absolutely trouble for any military, but in particular for a tiny one like ours. 

Cheers
 
OK, I've been quietly reading this string over the past few hours and can honestly say I'm thankful people out there are supportive of changing the CF culture to encourage fitness. It's been a topic that's been bugging me for quite some time.

Before I go into my solution to the problem, I should probably let people know my background. Joined the PRes as an Infantryman in 94, went through the old RESO program from 98-00 (minus Ph IV, as it wasn't offered), taught at LFCATC Meaford (conducing PT with the course BTW), went back to complete Ph IV as a "fat Captain" (well, I wasn't really fat but I liked to joke about it with my peers), went to Bosnia, and then CT'd to the Reg F as an INT O. I now work in Ottawa at NDHQ, and have had the displeasure of, yes, watching Snr Officers not make it to stage 4 of the Express Test.

An effective PT policy, IMHO, is predicated on the following:

1) Creating a culture of fitness within the CF that is balanced, achievable, and combat-oriented, regardless of trade;
2) This culture needs to be supported by the Chain of Command, with encouragement outweighting sanctions (but sanctions being used when needed); and
3) Supporting our soldiers with proper medical and fitness advice.

Point 1. Pretty simple stuff really. We have to drop the crap and acknowledge that combat will make physical demands on everyone, from the light infantry soldier to the clerk in the rear getting shelled. Any PT standard created by the military has to acknowledge this fact, and the standard should as much as possible reflect the situations encountered in combat. In my opinion, any PT standard needs to combine ruck marching, running in kit, muscular strength as demonstrated in a combat-oriented task (like diggin), and traditional push-ups/sit ups etc. From what I understand the new PT standards slowly being implemented are fairly close to this vision, and a welcome development.

Point 2. We have to acknowledge a few truths however in achieving the above. First, not everyone will achieve the "light infantry" standard. Sad but true. But everyone is a "soldier" and should be fit to fight. People not fit to fight, regardless of trade, rank, or position, should be given some form of warning and a realistic period of time to sort themselves out. People who are very fit or who put in an effort to get fit should be held up as examples and positively rewarded for their efforts with points towards promotion. If knowing French very well can get you points towards promotion, why not fitness? I'd even go so far as saying that if someone can't speak french but is very fit, why not compensate the lack of bilingualism points with fitness points? All within reason of course...

One idea that people will probably freak out about on this forum, but which I'll throw out there, is handing out a medal for the top echelons of fitness in the army. It would be incredibly difficult to get, and organized along the same lines as the Queen's Medal for Champion Shot. Only give out two per year with one to each gender, Reg F or PRes. I have no idea how it would be organized, but I would envision something like a super mountain-man event organized at the national level combining a series of combat oriented physical fitness events.

Point 3. This is probably my most important point. The others above are generally in agreement with everyone else. I think we do an awful job in the CF of providing medical and fitness support to our soldiers. I give my case in point. I used to get bad IT band problems and the odd case of ankle inflammation. Being a dumbass, I'd just soldier through it. When I did report it, they'd give me Ibuprofen and send me on my way. Then, about a year ago, I went in for a physio appointment for a broken arm and noticed a pile of shoe inserts being delivered. I casually joked with the physio guy, and he took it on himself to give me a foot inspection. Well, turns out I've been overprinting for years. I was issued a pair of insoles and went back to doing PT. You know what? It felt damn good. I could run forever. I used to feel a little stiff after runs but with these insoles, I don't feel anything after a long run. I later learned the US Army, upon joining, conducts a foot and body mechanics inspection of all new recruits. The CF should do the same during all medicals to ensure that PT problems don't start earlier. If someone fails to meet a PT standard, a medical/fitness inspection should be immediately ordered for the member to make sure it's not the result of a problem out of their control that can be fixed with a simple $10 piece of plastic. Likewise, if someone's having problems with body weight, we should have them sit down with a dietitian and perhaps even provide them with advice and counselling. We don't do stuff like that. Our medical system is geared to fixing broken people rather than prevention, and if we want to help people push themselves physically we need to change that to avoid creating fitness "problem kids" over the long term.

Will this cost some money? Sure, but you can't have an Army on the cheap despite what past governments have been trying to do. Just acknowledge it, pay it, and carry on.

Now, as for the unfit Locals and Cols floating around who grew up on the "step test" mentality. Same deal. Medical inspections to ensure their bodies are up to the task. A grace period to allow them to train for the standard (along with everyone else). If they fail to achieve it, a warning just like everyone else and counselling. If they don't improve after that wake-up call? Well, CF members have access to internal Public Service employment calls now, which is more of an advantage most get looking for a job.

Now, the compensation issue. I think this issue is always blown out of proportion. Reg F/Cl B/Cl C soldiers, as long as they are conducting unit PT or stuff as prescribed on their exercise prescription form are covered. Hold onto those things like the holy grail. The Army Lessons Learned Centre has an excellent Pam on that stuff. As for class A reservists, I'd simply pay them a small bounty per year to cover "physical fitness expenses" and have them fill out an exercise prescription to cover them for pension purposes. By accepting the money, they acknowledge that they're to exercise on their own time. If someone who accepts the bounty subsequently fails the standard, their pay is docked for the value of the bounty and the Physical Fitness counselling procedure started. That way no one can really complain they're "not being paid" to do PT.

Well, that's my rant on the subject. I too get annoyed when I see members in uniform neglect their duty by allowing themselves to become unfit. But the best way to get those people out of the service is to cut off their argument that their sedentary lifestyles are the result of medical problems by being proactive in providing exercise and medical advice, while rewarding those people who go out of their way to be examples to others.
 
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