New Dress Regs 🤣

[ueo]

The good old days eh ? I was born in '79

Which should preclude your opinions!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Which should preclude your opinions!

Lol need a Snickers Betty ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I was a firefighter posted to the ships for a time. Every time we did fit testing we'd have at least one person who would give some issue about beards or such. They would try to get us to fit test them with the beard, not understanding that we can't. It was against the RPP.

I've also had an officer try and tell me we couldn't refuse an order even when it blatantly broke every safety rule I'd ever heard of. One quick chat with the EO and that was the end of that. He was told in no uncertain terms that he couldn't order people to do what he wanted us to do.

Meanwhile, the US Navy is doing a study...

New in 2023: Results of the Navy’s latest beard study coming in 2023​

Navy officials have in the past cited two Naval Safety Center reviews that found even a few days’ stubble might impact a mask’s seal.

But safety center records show just one incident in roughly the past 30 years in which a beard affected a mask seal, and it involved a civilian shipyard worker.

Under its existing waiver policy, the Navy limits beards to a quarter-inch length, but a 2021 Military Medicine article referenced assessments showing that half-face respirators were 98 percent effective with an 1/8-inch beard and 100 percent effective with a 1/16-inch beard.

New in 2023: Results of the Navy’s latest beard study coming in 2023

SECNAV mandated a renewed assessment of the beard question earlier in 2022.

www.militarytimes.com

 

[Quirky]

Here is a scenario for you - Imagine if you will you and 7 of your close buddies are armed and fully bombed up with front line ammo. Six x C7 assault rifles, two of which have 40 mm grenade launchers , 2 x C9 LMG, various grenades and other things to blow things up.
How does one safely conduct a live fire section attack? Its actually quite simple but to the untrained eye it looks very dangerous, but its only mildly dangerous. Training and communication is the key.

All of that puts a shiver down my spine. I’d probably call in for air support.

 

[OldSolduer]

All of that puts a shiver down my spine. I’d probably call in for air support.

And that can happen with a good FAC/FOO or MFC when the infantry had their own mortars.

Now imagine 3 sects of what I described with a Platoon Weapons Det that may be employing the C6 GPMG firing the sections in. Good times

 

[Navy_Pete]

Meanwhile, the US Navy is doing a study...

New in 2023: Results of the Navy’s latest beard study coming in 2023​

Navy officials have in the past cited two Naval Safety Center reviews that found even a few days’ stubble might impact a mask’s seal.

But safety center records show just one incident in roughly the past 30 years in which a beard affected a mask seal, and it involved a civilian shipyard worker.

Under its existing waiver policy, the Navy limits beards to a quarter-inch length, but a 2021 Military Medicine article referenced assessments showing that half-face respirators were 98 percent effective with an 1/8-inch beard and 100 percent effective with a 1/16-inch beard.

New in 2023: Results of the Navy’s latest beard study coming in 2023

SECNAV mandated a renewed assessment of the beard question earlier in 2022.

www.militarytimes.com

Weird stat if everyone is required to be clean shaven to wear a respirator.

The study in the Military Medicine was for a half face respirator which isn't used in fire fighting conditions (or for CBRN) so doesn't translate to that, and if it's only done for a static seal test it doesn't mean a whole lot.

We tested the specific RCN SCBAs under simulated fire fighting conditions (moving around etc) and no one with facial hair could keep a seal WHILE FIRE FIGHTING. While sitting still some people were okay, others lost it right away (even with a day's stubble). Really depends on face shape, hair thickness and some other factors, so pretty complicated.

I think with common sense there are plenty of occasions where you can have ways to let people grow some beards (ie shave buckets at the emergency stations) but you need to make sure you have enough people for your initial response. We tend to run with minimal folks for the start so there really isn't much wiggle room, and with our alongside duty watch down to 6 people now (from 10 not long ago) we are already at the edge of what's safe.

The USN also does things completely differently for crewing compared to RCN, RN, RAN and RNZN, so it's not the best one to follow, as they tend to have twice the crew for comparable ship size/capabilities.

 

[dimsum]

Weird stat if everyone is required to be clean shaven to wear a respirator.

The study in the Military Medicine was for a half face respirator which isn't used in fire fighting conditions (or for CBRN) so doesn't translate to that, and if it's only done for a static seal test it doesn't mean a whole lot.

We tested the specific RCN SCBAs under simulated fire fighting conditions (moving around etc) and no one with facial hair could keep a seal WHILE FIRE FIGHTING. While sitting still some people were okay, others lost it right away (even with a day's stubble). Really depends on face shape, hair thickness and some other factors, so pretty complicated.

I think with common sense there are plenty of occasions where you can have ways to let people grow some beards (ie shave buckets at the emergency stations) but you need to make sure you have enough people for your initial response. We tend to run with minimal folks for the start so there really isn't much wiggle room, and with our alongside duty watch down to 6 people now (from 10 not long ago) we are already at the edge of what's safe.

The USN also does things completely differently for crewing compared to RCN, RN, RAN and RNZN, so it's not the best one to follow, as they tend to have twice the crew for comparable ship size/capabilities.

What is the 6-person duty watch now?

Also, it would be ironically funny if being clean shaven became a symbol that you were an "operational sailor", and not one of those staff weenies in HQ

 

[Navy_Pete]

What is the 6-person duty watch now?

Also, it would be ironically funny if being clean shaven became a symbol that you were an "operational sailor", and not one of those staff weenies in HQ

2 quarter masters (on/off watch), 2 MCR watchkeepers (on/off) officer of the day and petty officer of the day.

For a while it was down to 7 (with a duty technician) but they cut the duty tech.

Previously you had enough people on board to deal with some basic things. Now they only have enough to watch for emergencies and do the initial response, but are entirely dependent on other ships/shore support for the emergencies.

Depending who is on the duty watch, you likely won't be able to do basic things like go between shore/ship power, do basic troubleshooting on equipment etc. Essentially have to start recalling people.

 

[brihard]

There are many overlapping safety measures. Remember one yeah doing the PWT 3, starting at the 400. Targets went up everyone started to run till one new person fired a round instead of running. Yes, there were people ahead of them, about halfway down the mound, but the individual who fired stayed within their arcs. There was a safety failure, but another safety measure stopped it from resulting in an injury.

I actually know a guy who got hit by a C9 burst during a live fire night attack. He survived, though it was career altering. Safety screwups we’re obviously found, and a court martial resulted for the soldier who fired.

 

[Halifax Tar]

2 quarter masters (on/off watch), 2 MCR watchkeepers (on/off) officer of the day and petty officer of the day.

For a while it was down to 7 (with a duty technician) but they cut the duty tech.

Previously you had enough people on board to deal with some basic things. Now they only have enough to watch for emergencies and do the initial response, but are entirely dependent on other ships/shore support for the emergencies.

Depending who is on the duty watch, you likely won't be able to do basic things like go between shore/ship power, do basic troubleshooting on equipment etc. Essentially have to start recalling people.

I was the first or second person qualified as DPO on the east coast. The initial roll out was ridiculously difficult for anyone not already a snr engineer.

 

[medicineman]

I actually know a guy who got hit by a C9 burst during a live fire night attack. He survived, though it was career altering. Safety screwups we’re obviously found, and a court martial resulted for the soldier who fired.

I looked after 4 people blowed up in a tire house while they were doing a live fire assault...dude THREW the grenade in, with the foreseeable consequences of it bouncing off the wall and out the opposite door like a pool shot and exploding in the hallway. Funny thing was, of all the live fire room and house clearing ranges we did that day, that wasn't the one I expected anyone to get hurt on.

 

[ff149]

I should say when I was on the ships they were still using Chemox, which aren't positive pressure masks. So if there is a leak you are breathing in everything that's in the space.

I remember one chief saying that they had asked various fire departments what their policy for shaving was for those working 24 hour shifts. He tried to say a 24 hour stubble is the same as a full beard.

Or the CSE chief that came into an somewhat real Hazmat situation without any breathing apparatus on to ask how we were doing with the situation. I was thinking to myself that I was either really over dressed or he was under dressed.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I should say when I was on the ships they were still using Chemox, which aren't positive pressure masks. So if there is a leak you are breathing in everything that's in the space.

I remember one chief saying that they had asked various fire departments what their policy for shaving was for those working 24 hour shifts. He tried to say a 24 hour stubble is the same as a full beard.

Or the CSE chief that came into an somewhat real Hazmat situation without any breathing apparatus on to ask how we were doing with the situation. I was thinking to myself that I was either really over dressed or he was under dressed.

Even with positive pressure masks, if you lose the seal things are getting in. Bit like having an open door during a fire where the compartment is at positive pressure but you still get fresh air going in while smoke is coming out due to basic physics.

I have no idea why we were allowing beards with Chemoxes, but then again we were using something made for escaping mines in the 1950s for fire fighting up until about a dozen years ago. I hate when people try and use that to justify not shaving now; just because we used to do something stupid doesn't mean we still should.

Obviously things get worse for the seal the longer the beard is, but for some people 24 hours is enough to blow the seal when they start moving around and sweating, but that seems to be the same kind of person that has a 5 o'clock shadow 10 minutes after shaving..

 

[OldSolduer]

The solution? Go ahead grow that beard.

Then have an ex where they need to mask quickly and introduce them to Mr CS.

 

[Navy_Pete]

The solution? Go ahead grow that beard.

Then have an ex where they need to mask quickly and introduce them to Mr CS.

That used to happen regularly at the DC school with the Chemox and beards. Didn't matter, people are stupid and will roll the dice that they won't see a fire.

We have 1 or 2 a month, plus 2-3 near misses in a very small fleet. We actually just had a fire in the fire fighting school FFS on Xmas day. The RCN is an organization were hope and optimism is COA A, B, C, D.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1607060537103228929

Situation: We are probably foxed, but we think we're okay.

Mission: To do even more with even less. Also, ignore the downward spiral on attrition.

Execution
Phase 1: Hope things are okay.
Phase 2: I'm sure it's fine.
Phase 3:

 

[dimsum]

We actually just had a fire in the fire fighting school FFS on Xmas day.

That was not something I expected to read.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

That used to happen regularly at the DC school with the Chemox and beards. Didn't matter, people are stupid and will roll the dice that they won't see a fire.

We have 1 or 2 a month, plus 2-3 near misses in a very small fleet. We actually just had a fire in the fire fighting school FFS on Xmas day. The RCN is an organization were hope and optimism is COA A, B, C, D.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1607060537103228929

Situation: We are probably foxed, but we think we're okay.

Mission: To do even more with even less. Also, ignore the downward spiral on attrition.

Execution
Phase 1: Hope things are okay.
Phase 2: I'm sure it's fine.
Phase 3:

 

[Navy_Pete]

That was not something I expected to read.

Me neither, Merry Xmas!

Fortunately no one hurt, and these things happen, but still. It's not just a theoretical risk, and part of sea pay is being on duty watch to react to a shipboard fire, so the wannabe Ragnars can just suck it up IMHO and shave.

Off the top of my head there were at least 3 or 4 alongside fires on ships last year, and one was big enough to cause about $500k in damage. We only have a dozen ships or less alongside at any point so statistically pretty poor.

 

[Furniture]

Me neither, Merry Xmas!

Fortunately no one hurt, and these things happen, but still. It's not just a theoretical risk, and part of sea pay is being on duty watch to react to a shipboard fire, so the wannabe Ragnars can just suck it up IMHO and shave.

Off the top of my head there were at least 3 or 4 alongside fires on ships last year, and one was big enough to cause about $500k in damage. We only have a dozen ships or less alongside at any point so statistically pretty poor.

Another factor to consider is that some of the clean shaven people will refuse to go into a fire, or can only make one run before they are spent(mental/physical).

A friend of mine working the dispersal area during the PRO fire told me that there were people dressed who didn't get sent because they clearly weren't mentally fit for being on the attack team. If half of your hard chagers are wannabe "Ragnars", you could end up a few teams short of "out and overhauled"...

 

[Navy_Pete]

Another factor to consider is that some of the clean shaven people will refuse to go into a fire, or can only make one run before they are spent(mental/physical).

A friend of mine working the dispersal area during the PRO fire told me that there were people dressed who didn't get sent because they clearly weren't mentally fit for being on the attack team. If half of your hard chagers are wannabe "Ragnars", you could end up a few teams short of "out and overhauled"...

Yeah, lots of scenarios where it could be a problem; people can get cut off from their section base due to the damage, injured in the initial accident etc, so if you don't have redundancy for your initial response you are pretty much hooped. And even best case people will lose their seal anyway, and when that happens they generally only have enough time to evacuate, and there is a delay when you are waiting for a replacement.

FRE was a more recent example, but some people could only do one run and were exhausted, and a few folks were hyperventilating. Totally understandable, and hoping we'll finally get the live fire trainers up and running next year so that we can shake that out ashore and help people get over that hump.

Has been more progress in the last year and a bit on that than the previous decade, so that will help, but with other things on aging ships affecting smoke control and other basics, the risk/severity keeps going up and the BGHs want to keep running the old ships indefinitely.