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New Light Infantry Batallion Orbat

:cdn:
Just to add more to this thread. I've been tasked as part of 3 RCR O coy to form a Light Inf Coy for the upcoming ACT INF course in Gagetown. This is a dismounted Coy Comd course. In that coy we already have a weapons section with 2x C6, 1x 84mm and 1x 60mm. We have not received the new marksman weapon yet but I hear the course is coming soon. Will post more as I receive it.
:cdn:
 
The MRS is not yet type standard we currently have a few C7CT and AR10T -- the course has not been standardized yet either.  The guns however are at this time operational use only.

The reserves will not see the DM course nor the rifles, since they are not true Light Infantry and will not get the LI orbat TO&E.

 
DELTADOG13 said:
:cdn:
Just to add more to this thread. I've been tasked as part of 3 RCR O coy to form a Light Inf Coy for the upcoming ACT INF course in Gagetown.
Lordy, they ARE desperate, aren't they?

;)  ;D
 
KevinB said:
The reserves will not see the DM course nor the rifles, since they are not true Light Infantry and will not get the LI orbat TO&E.

This is news to me Kevin, as everything I have seen are heard  indicates a shift of the reserve infantry to the "true" light orbat.
Everything we are doing is predicated on filling the 'light" role. In fact it is very hard to see reserve INF units filling  any other role without a great deal more support and of course infrastructure and kit.

SB

 
Sorry to bother you guys,

What do the symbols mean under the Admin Company on the "Light Infantry Battalion" slide? I got the rest of them, but I can't say I've ever seen those before (but that shouldn't come as a surprise, as my understanding of them only goes as far as is necessary to read and understand memoirs...)

Thanks,
 
Well, all four units have the "three dots" ([/b]...[/b]), which means they are Platoons.  If I recall correctly, you have:

Transport Platoon (the wheel)
Maintenance Platoon (the wrench)
Support Platoon (the horizontal line)
Medical Platoon (the cross)
 
Being a bother again....

I thought the army was phasing out the 84mm mortars (I think that is what the 84mm means)? If I remember correctly they had said something along the lines of they were not relevant in urban combat (...which is also something I never understood...)

...or am I once again out to lunch?

Thanks,
 
Steel Badger said:
This is news to me Kevin, as everything I have seen are heard   indicates a shift of the reserve infantry to the "true" light orbat.
Everything we are doing is predicated on filling the 'light" role. In fact it is very hard to see reserve INF units filling   any other role without a great deal more support and of course infrastructure and kit.

SB

Don't confuse Dismounted Infantry with Light Infantry.  Not the same thing at all.  Reserves will continue to be Dismounted Infantry.
 
Dismounted. Do you mean they will pretend they have tanks and carriers nearby? Playing a notional tank squadron in front of you does alter your tactics. Is this what the militia is to do?

      To say infantry that lack any sort of tactical vehicle are anything but "light" is wrong. Could the intent of the light/ dismounted split be to keep militia soldiers from wearing special coloured berets etc. After all it's clear the supporters of the "light force" see this as something akin to US Ranger battalions. It sounds petty but most of the army's organization is based on "tribal" affiliation. The colour of your hat means a lot to some people.

    There's no saying that the light battalions won't need reinforcing for ops. Wouldn't it be easier to integrate militia soldiers who have already been trained in whatever special TTPs or organizations the regulars have? Wouldn't integration of reinforcements, reg or res, be easier without all the "I'm special" nonsense which is coming down the track.

    Just to stir the pot more I think all infantrymen should wear a corps badge, wear nothing to indicate component or unit and they should serve in numbered units.
 
Michael Shannon said:
Dismounted. Do you mean they will pretend they have tanks and carriers nearby? Playing a notional tank squadron in front of you does alter your tactics. Is this what the militia is to do?

That's not what I said.

     
To say infantry that lack any sort of tactical vehicle are anything but "light" is wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree.  Light Infantry is a specialised function, based on very specific skill sets, to say nothing of a carefully cultivated mindset.

Could the intent of the light/ dismounted split be to keep militia soldiers from wearing special coloured berets etc.

Oh good - a conspiracy theory.  Just what my Monday needed.

After all it's clear the supporters of the "light force" see this as something akin to US Ranger battalions.

Yep.

It sounds petty but most of the army's organization is based on "tribal" affiliation. The colour of your hat means a lot to some people.

And your point is?

     
There's no saying that the light battalions won't need reinforcing for ops. Wouldn't it be easier to integrate militia soldiers who have already been trained in whatever special TTPs or organizations the regulars have? Wouldn't integration of reinforcements, reg or res, be easier without all the "I'm special" nonsense which is coming down the track.

With a funding level of 37.5 days a year, a crushing administrative load, difficulty in recruiting and retention, a dearth of trained junior leadership etc etc The Reserve Infantry is well-suited to generating basic soldiers - and do an excellent job of doing exactly that.

    Just to stir the pot more I think all infantrymen should wear a corps badge, wear nothing to indicate component or unit and they should serve in numbered units.

Well its hard to disagree with a well crafted and unassailable argument like that, backed up by all that theory and facts like it is...

Dave - slightly grumpy this morning.
 
I'm going to have to call you out on the Reserve Infantry not being "Light".  PPCLIGuy

From my experience (which, in the scheme of things is relatively minimal), the Reserve company and battalion is trained and executes its doctrine based on the "light" formation, rather than the "dismounted" one you discussed earlier. I would believe the non-existence of mechanized or dismounted troops in the Reserves is due to the budget or lack thereof to provide adequate transportation and combat vehicles, and thus we train for the fact that our deployment and ability to "close with and destroy" the enemy comes from the black cadillacs and rucksacks. All the food and water / supplies we would need for an attack were brought with us, no matter the terrain, to sustain ourselves until completion at the objective and resupply. It should be mentioned that the Light Reserves can indeed be inserted through airmobile operations, amphibious assault or taking the direct, overland routes. We maintain the ability to be self-sufficient and to operate without heavy direct support from armour assets. This is the way that our company has been designed to fight, and as such, I can only fail to see why this ORBAT would not be included within the Reserve structure.

Mind you, if I either am wrong about the nature of the light infantry, or I misread your comments, holler.
 
What goes hand in hand with the new ORBAT is the specialized training and skillsets that are required of a purely light force.   Think of it (as other posters have pointed out) as a Ranger type of training.

Reserve infantry is inherently light for the reasons you mentioned Baloo, but it doesn't mean that reserve infantry has the same skillsets that a light battalion in the Reg Force has.  ANY infantry soldier light or mech should be able to do what you had posted with little difficulty

But Mark C says it much better than I could hope to do here.

Fellows,

Based on the posts above, several of us seem to be missing the extant point.  And that point is that in accordance with the extant Army Strategy voiced by the CLS (now CDS), "Mech" and "Light" Infantry will continue to grow apart.  Perhaps not to the point (like the Armoured  Corps) where we are talking baseline "Occupational Specialities" (Recce) versus sub-set "Occupational Speciality Specifications" (Direct-Fire) but within our heretofore "homogenous" Infantry corps we are certainly envisioning a evolutionary distinction between mech (conventional) and light (specialized, SOC) capabilities, units and soldiers. 

The FEC says that light infantry skills will continue to develop, and at the end of the day "mech" will not be expected to re-role to "light" without substantive training.  Nor vice versa.  The infantry corps will de-facto grow apart based on the recognized need for 2 comparatively distinct subsets of the basic infantry trade.

CFL:  I am sure that light infantrymen would be able to pile into the back of a LAV and play "mech inf" if required.  But at the end of the day, that would represent a fundamental waste of capability.  Could you take a "pure" light battalion within the current Army environment and suddenly re-role it to LAV-III based Mech Infantry in terms of Crew Commanders, Platoon Commanders, etc, etc, etc?  The answer is yes - if you really, really had to.  But let's face it - the price of doing so for a single op deployment would constitute a grotesque waste of both efficiency and economy.  Just imagine trying to re-train everyone within that "Light" unit on the LAV - from Driver, to Gunner, to Crew Comd.  What a horrific waste of operationally-oriented money that could have been better spent on fully-qualified mech troops. 

The exact same argument applies in reverse.  How do you suddenly take a re-roled mech coy and instantaneously produce PIs, JMs, Pathfinders, MOIs, etc?  Not to mention enhancing the basic qualifications (eg. moutain ops) of every single soldier within the unit?  And then try to manage the fundamental expections and mindset of the formerly mech soldiers within the "light" requirements of the unit in question... 

The fact of the matter is that the further we go down the road of "Light" being distinct (for validated reasons) from "Mech" Infantry, the opportunity for "mix and match" fulfillment of one another's roles will become increasingly untenable.  In other words, the further we pursue satisfying the Army's "Force Employment Concept", the more we will face a situation where generic "Plug and Play" infantry simply do not work within the current Field Force construct.  C Coy 2 PPCLI were able to integrate and perform exceptionally well within 3 PPCLI 3 years ago.  If we follow the anticipated "way ahead" for the Army where the FEC dicates that mech infantry will not do light infantry tasks (without additional training) and vice versa, then mech/light compatability will inevitably cease to exist.  For those who hang their hats on math, 9 becomes 6 + 3 - and rarely shall those numbers deviate. 

If the existing Light Battalions continue to evolve in line with the Army Commander's stated "SOC" intent, then the "delta" between mech and light infantry will only continue to grow at an exponential rate.  The past ability of "C Coy" 2 PPCLI to integrate with 3 PPCLI after a very short light-infantry work-up period will become increasingly null and void.  The respective "Specialist skills gap" will simply become too great when the light infantry begin to depart from the "common denominator" infantry skill-sets in favour of producing a SOC organization.  And the same applies in reverse.  Even within the same Occupational Specialty, one has to wonder if there ought not to be "Light" and "Mech" Infantry OSS.  After all, if (according to the Army Strategy), mech and light infantry forces are entities with fundamentally different capabilities and associated training requirements, do they not necessitate distinctive qualification requirements?  Perhaps an 031 (Mech) OS, with an 031 (Light) OSS is the way ahead? 

The 3 x Canadian light infantry battalions are moving towards specialization to an ever greater degree based upon clear direction contained in the SORD, the FEC, and the results to date of the Army Light Forces Working Group.  Our light battalions are clearly headed towards "Special Ops Capability".  This ought not be a surprise to anyone who had the opportunity to view 3 PPCLI's comparative performance within TF Rakassan/187 BCT in Afghanistan.  Truth be told, within the coalition/NATO context 3 PPCLI BG was already quite "Special Ops Capable". 

At the same time, the increasing "specialization" of the "light fighters" suggests that their interchangability with the mech infantry is increasingly untenable.  The SORD calls for the light infantry to specialize.  It should therefore come as no surprise to anyone that the rather "free-wheeling" "3rd Battalions" have already set the ball in motion (to varying degrees).  Indeed, most of the "Light Battalions" are already significantly ahead of the rather obvious Land Staff direction.  Just don't expect them to suddenly transition to LAVs.  And (one would truly hope) vice-versa.....

Sorry, but I don't have the time this evening to address multiple contributors to this rather fascinating thread.  For CFL specifically however, I would argue that your contention is increasingly untenable.  You stated that "with a little more time a mech solider can re-role into a light role and perform their duties well".  That may have held true back in 2002 when the light battalions were still feeling their way through the light role, but it is no longer the case.  The re-roling "gap" could be readily bridged back in 02.  But let's face it - there were extenuating cricumstances, not the least of which was the fact that OC C Coy had just left 3PPCLI after 3 years of service within the unit with the "light" mindset.  Devil39 can speak for himself, so I will say no more. 

As time marches on, if the Army Strategy and Force Employment Concepts take effect then the differentiation between mech and light infantry will likely continue to grow.  The FEC already says that neither will be expected to perform the function of the other without additional training.  Mech verus Light infantry will become defacto OS versus OSS skill-sets.  Not necessarily separate from a corps perspective, but certainly distinct.  It won't be something that either side can easily "pick up" given a couple of weeks' training.  They will (and are already fast-becoming) very distinctive skill-sets within the overall Infantry Corps.

The days of relatively simple sub-unit-level mech/light cross-pollinization are pretty much over.  We lived it at a particular point and place in time, and it worked spectacularly (eg. C Coy 2 VP with 3 VP). But that was because the "Light" Infantry construct was not yet fully defined and implemented.  The minute we divorce our light battalions from the inanity of "conventional WW III mech ops" and focus their efforts on typical SOC tasks, the disparity between the "LAV soldier" and the "Light Soldier" will become increasingly pronounced.  To the point (I would argue) that we as a common corps may not be able to bridge the gap between the two with a simple OS versus OSS fix.  Certainly, we will no longer be able to take a mech pl or coy and "re-role" it as "light".  Or, vice-versa.  The specialized skill-sets simply will not exist in either direction.

Anyhow, enough thinking for this evening.  It is time to imbibe (more).


 
I'm going to suggest to the rest of the DS that we have no postings on serious topics here on Mondays because we're always way too grumpy. ::)

I would suggest based on my somewhat dated, but I would argue far from limited experience, as an infanteer is that what we should be going for is a multi tiered approach.

First phase is basic infantry skills, call it dismounted if that's what floats your boat. In the regulars this is what is taught at the Regimental Battle Schools prior to posting to a Bn. Basic bread and butter infantry skill sets, weapons handling, small unit tactics, patrolling, field craft etc etc. Reserve units also do this and to be honest with the limits (time, financial etc)  on most if not all Milita Bns this is probably a realistic skill set level to both achieve and maintain for the majority of troops.

After this the regulars move onto specialized infantry either mech or light with their inherent differences as discussed on more than one thread here. Said skills are adds on to the basic infantry skills which no matter how you get to work and what you do when you get there are still needed as I'm sure you can all agree. Sneaking and peaking around in the mountains of Afghanistan or wheeling about in a LAV are all nice and cool but mean squat if nobody made sure you can properly and instinctively preform IAs on your personal weapon before you go learning all the cool stuff. These are taught, and maintained at the respective light or mech Bn.

All this of course is in addition to other training, specialized (recce ADP, mortars, oops sorry they're gone now) and Leadership course as already done.

The majority of the reserve units at least initially would stay at this basic infantry level, although individuals and sub units attached to their regular counterparts would attain and possibly even maintain light or mech skills.

Eventually some reserve units that had demonstrated the abilty to maintain a reasonable cadre (say operational coy size) of trained basic infanteers could if money and resources permitted move up to training as either a specialized mech or light unit. Such units could  then, once they achieved and maintained this proficiency, be assigned as round out or supplement units to regular Bns much in the way the PLF provided a mech platoon to 4CMBG and the RNBR a platoon to the CAST brigade during the Cold War.

Of course I could be talking out of my fifth point of contact here. It's Monday and like everyone else I'm cranky.
 
Well I think MJP has quoted the key parts from MarkC.


LI-SOC units are required to be at a much higher readiness level due to the potential to be attached to a Rapid Deployment - that will never happen in the reserves.

Secondly with the MRS in either flavour - AR10T or C7CT.  These guns require training and skill -the AR10 is 7.62mm (and a better choice IMHO)

Both come with suppressors - curently the sniper cells are attempting to drive the CT to the rifle companies as a DM gun and use the AR10 exclusviely by the sniper cells.  AFAIK their are only 12 AR10's and 12 C7CT's in the conventional army system.

There is no concrete plan to equip the mech BN's as it stands with the DM's -- these guns are both pricey and the trg that goes with it.

You know me and pics.

Ct2.jpg


DownloadAttach.asp


I for one beleive that marksman like sniper never be deployed alone - you cant spend much more than 30min on a scope without eye fatigue - I would suggest that the DM's be paried a min at the PL level and a DM be added at the section level - do the way we are dispersing sections etc.  IF we adopt the 4 man brick as the LI-SOC building block then a DM/ brick shoudl be an option as well (although not always deployed as such)


I just cant see the reserve training schedule allowing ever for a specialised role - I'd advocate a dismount role using armoured crewmen to crew LAV's...to
 
KevinB said:
they [the Reserves] are not true Light Infantry and will not get the LI orbat TO&E.
Steel Badger said:
This is news to me Kevin, as everything I have seen are heard  indicates a shift of the reserve infantry to the "true" light orbat.
Everything we are doing is predicated on filling the 'light" role. In fact it is very hard to see reserve INF units filling  any other role without a great deal more support and of course infrastructure and kit.
PPCLI Guy said:
Don't confuse Dismounted Infantry with Light Infantry.  Not the same thing at all.  Reserves will continue to be Dismounted Infantry.
Michael Shannon said:
To say infantry that lack any sort of tactical vehicle are anything but "light" is wrong. Could the intent of the light/ dismounted split be to keep militia soldiers from wearing special coloured berets etc. After all it's clear the supporters of the "light force" see this as something akin to US Ranger battalions.
PPCLI Guy said:
We will have to agree to disagree.  Light Infantry is a specialised function, based on very specific skill sets, to say nothing of a carefully cultivated mindset.
I've watched this argument played out a few times.  Everything quoted from Mark C is correct.  The regular force light infantry will see its role expanded, however that should not imply that the rest of the army adjust the definition of light infantry to include SOF operations.  Lets stick with the official definitions that are out there:
MCG said:
According to the Light Forces Working Group light forces are principally foot borne forces optimized for military operations in complex environment, rapidly deployable through a variety of means, yet not tied to any one platform.
If the 3rd Bns want a title that distinguishes them from the other light organizations, then they can try "LI-SOC" (as used by KevinB), "Mobile Infantry" (as used by Robert Heinlein), "Commando Infantry" (don't think this one has been used), or something else.


. . . but, this still does not necessarily mean that our reserve infantry is light.  Certainly, if we ever want our reservists to fight in their own units or sub-units, then they should be organized & equipped for the roll they will fight in (light or mech).  However, if we only intend to augment regular force mechanized units with reservists, then there is probably nothing wrong with calling them dismounted, not giving them the equipment, and training them as per a mounted orbat.  Perhaps another thread could explore the topic of should our reserve infantry be light, mechanized, or dismounted (and what does it mean to be a "dismounted" unit).
 
Mark C. Do you believe that the light battalions will be kept at "war strength" and the mech battalions designed for top up with a lot of reservists? Does this whole plan depend on the 5,000 new recruits joining and being trained? What skill sets would 3 VP need in Afghanistan but 2 VP wouldn't? Is it possible the difficulty of the light "special skill" sets are exaggerated? Do you see the light battalions doing a 6 months in 12 months out rotation in Afghanistan? Or will they supply companies to TF?
 
Marks off line on his HHT.


However IMHO I think that YES you will see LI SOC BN's (I stole that from a certain R22eR's LIWG presentation) at near full strength.  Secondly you may see some of them parted out to add a need element to TF's - as was done for ROTO II OP Athena.  Secondly if you look a TF 1-06 as a template the Reserves are being used to filled a needed role - currenlty Camp Security where due to lack of (will or bodies?) MP's the CS and escort duties fall to the 031 trade - where the LI and Mech units will be used to hunt down and kill the enemy. Less glamorous yes - but if R031 pers are used for Convoy escort they will likley endure their fair share of attacks as well...
 
Michael Shannon said:
Does this whole plan depend on the 5,000 new recruits joining and being trained? What skill sets would 3 VP need in Afghanistan but 2 VP wouldn't?
Do a search for managed readiness.
 
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